(I heard someone talk some evil. No you did not. Yes I did).
Some of the revelations my MIL just had to share with me (for my own good):
In the good old days when I still occasionally said something personal while being in the company of the MIL, once upon a day I said something positive about a good friend, something about how funny he is and that we have been friends for a real long time (oops..).
That got the MIL going. So J., this (so-called) friend of yours. You know he'll only flatter you. He will not be honest with you because he's your friend. People who are not your friend wouldn't be that nice to you. They could be trusted to be telling you the truth, because they do not care for/like/know you and wouldn't be biased (are we still on topic here...?). In fact they would be the real friends.
(Hmmm, thanks MIL for telling it like it is, that makes so much sense, I feel so much better now).
(I heard some evil. No you did not. It is the TRUTH. Yes it is!).
Some more revelations of the MIL on how human beings are:
It is easy to be nice. It's much harder not to be nice.
If you have everything you want, it is easy to be nice. If you wouldn't have it all, you wouldn't be nice.
If you have nothing, you would be nice. People who have it all, have no need to be nice.
(I am so happy MIL you have repeated this 100 times for my sake. Some TRUTHs just need to be ingrained don't they, the TRUTH is never easy).
Then a personal revelation of the MIL:
I am not nice. So people do not like me. I have a special character, that's just the way it is, nobody understands me. There are people that are loved but that is because they are likable, they show interest in other people, they care about other people. I don't waste my energy caring about people. I am just an honest person, I do what I do, so that is why nobody likes me. That is just the way it is. Life is just so easy for people who are not like me. It is so hard to be me, you have no idea. You have to take me as I am.
( Forever grateful MIL for telling me the
Gosh. How messed up, right?! Evil is human nature- I was a nanny for many years and you better believe I saw this first hand. Kids are born with a natural tendency to NOT be nice- manners are learned so is consideration and other things. It's MUCH harder to naturally be NOT nice than it is to be nice.
ReplyDeleteMy in laws had a good and bad checklist on a person directly dependent on how the others in the family 'approved' of them or did not approve. Someone was good by acceptance and bad by rejection. Someone who was good could be seen as evil if they did not live up to the N's standards. It's kind of nice to see this in hindsight- really sears into my brain what was wrong about the whole situation and what I do not miss.
These were just all ways of telling me that I had to take her as she is. That she has no responsibility at all for how she behaves. At the same time she wants to tell me that I should not trust my friends but rather people who do not like me or know me (probably herself)to be judging my character (why should I be judged in the first place). Is this total craziness or what. This is the way she talks... This is the way she has been talking to her sons all their life.
ReplyDeleteIt is totally messed up if you figure out what she is trying to accomplish here.
Oh I forgot, she contradicts herself too in the little story above. It is not really about 'the story' she's telling me. It is about the covert message it is carrying for me. I always detest it anyway when people are not upfront with me. If you want to say something to me, just say it. For her it is important to deliver a message and later on be able to deny it. She wants to affect people but doesn't want to be held accountable. I on the other hand just think that I am always responsible for my own behaviour. I read somewhere once that you can largely divide human beings in those who think that they are responsible for their own behaviour and those who think others are to be held responsible for how they behave.
ReplyDeleteI like that whole bit where your MIL says:
Delete"If you have everything you want, it is easy to be nice. If you wouldn't have it all, you wouldn't be nice."
"If you have nothing, you would be nice. People who have it all, have no need to be nice."
That is the same pattern of communication that MIL exhibits. She'll say two things that immediately contradict themselves.
I remember a looong time ago, I actually asked MIL to clarify which opinion she had because she would state too contradictory things. Well, that was a disaster. She just ended up changing the subject to something that we hadn't been talking about ans then yelling about a third thing.
Why would I confront?
Well, I will admit that for a long time I had a real problem. My real problem was that I assumed that logical conversations could be had with everyone on this planet. I assumed that if I just acted civilized enough, caring enough, and if I clarified enough, a lightbulb would go on in the mind of the person who was saying the irrational thing and then suddenly, they would speak rationally.
Yeah, that didn't work out as I had planned and I also learned that some people in this world will not or cannot think rationally.
J, do you have any more of your MIL's statements from opposite land? Bet that if you threw in a few, we'd be able to compile a" MIL Top 40 Hits" list in no time! :-)
If we get real creative we can even turn these things into songs. Now that would be fun!
(Ah yes, even though you haven't asked, I am quite irritated this week. Hence all the posts.)
Even though I have held up my end of the No Contact between me and MIL and MIL and kids, that doesn't mean MIL hasn't been meddling. Nope, she is an expert at remote meddling. She does it through FIL, BIL, SIL, and texts. My Dear Husband got really upset by something MIL did this week and it has caused a great set-back his attitude. For quite a while, he had made great progress in 'compartmentalizing' his anger against his mom. MIL pushed too many buttons this week through far too many avenues and DH is back to being grumpy. He's not yelling and he has never hit or threatened. (I wouldn't still be married if this were the case). But, he is a walking ball of extreme irritability and is spouting off all kinds of irrational things. More on that later.
However, if I tell you the latest story, I am not sure anyone will believe me. These antics that MIL and sometimes FIL use are so outrageous that they are hard for me to believe even though I have witnessed them. Truth is stranger than fiction.
When I read your posts there are many bells ringing...
DeleteSorry to hear that your husband is in such frequent contact with your MIL. I know how that feels. The meddling campaign machine is on full steam, and you know it will influence your husband. Really really frustrating. I feel for you.
Your husband is displaying passive-agressive behaviour I think. I know it all too well, my husband does the same sort of things. If his mother was really pressuring him I could sense it because of the way his behaviour towards me and the children changed. He became really irritable and started distancing himself from me. Finding fault in the most trivial things I did. All rather subtly in one way, but on the other I felt as if I was going crazy. When confronted, he always denied. Then weeks later it became clear that the MIL had been harassing him. He would then deny any connection between his and her behaviour. I'm not letting myself be fooled again. I told him I see the patterns. I told him I won't accept this behaviour any longer. And if he chooses to deny it it will eventually break us up. I think he is realizing this now.
I decided I have to learn on how to deal with bullies. The MIL is a bully, that's what it comes down to. I want to find out what to do exactly. I ordered the book 'Bullies below the radar by Ben Lechtling'. Hope I will learn some valuable things.
Please share the latest story if you want. I know truth is stranger than fiction...
J, you said,
Delete"Your husband is displaying passive-agressive behaviour I think. I know it all too well, my husband does the same sort of things. If his mother was really pressuring him I could sense it because of the way his behaviour towards me and the children changed. He became really irritable and started distancing himself from me. Finding fault in the most trivial things I did. All rather subtly in one way, but on the other I felt as if I was going crazy. When confronted, he always denied. Then weeks later it became clear that the MIL had been harassing him. He would then deny any connection between his and her behaviour."
Your above paragraph has literally been my own story for years. DH and I are at a turning point though and I laid down some of the new rules tonight. For the first time in our marriage, he admitted to me that he was actually scared of his parents and that when he did not have their approval it crushed him. Then, he said something about always feeling secretly like he is "never good enough" and a 'real loser". Wow, for everyone who knows my husband within a social context, I can tell you that they would never believe he said that or feels that way. This is the guy who wins awards at work because of the way he interacts with his patients. They think he is a saint. Then there is the fact that he is really a handsome guy and gets hit on a lot. But, on the rare occasion that he admits how he feels he looks, he will tell me that he feels he is ugly and weird looking. He never notices when he gets hit on either because in his mind he is horrid looking. Well, DH is a case study in how a couple of bad parents can greatly warp the self-perception of their own child. And I know that this was their intention because DH can be easily controlled by them if he is always feeling insecure and seeking their approval. VERY SAD.
Tonight, one again, I am p***ed.
Also, when I get a moment, I will share the latest 'truth is stranger than fiction' story. It is a long one. I told my best friend of 25 years the story today over the phone. (She lives in a different city now but we talk all the time). Luckily, she and I know each other better than just about anyone else, so she has the insight to know that I am not making stuff up or embellishing. Anyhow, the latest story has to do with MIL and FIL's criticism of our current house that started 6 years ago when we bought it. The REAL reason they were criticizing it came to light this week and I can guarantee you that you can think about what it might be for the next 100 years and it is so warped you probably won't come up with it. Ugh!
Oh man, me too! It's like- you got something to say to me- just say it B! lol I hate hate confrontation but think the world would be a better place if people just said what they meant instead of beating around the bush. You're totally right on that- it's another way for her not to be accountable. N's are great at the underlying theme of what they are saying- so YOU can make the assumption and they 'never said it' although they insinuated to the high heavens.
ReplyDeleteThe MIL is all about talking behind someone's back. Saying mean things. Trying to manipulate. A while ago when they were visiting us she gloatingly said (probably DH and FIL weren't even listening): I now know exactly what to say to [name other DIL] to get her to do what I want.
DeleteI'm still wondering why she wanted me to know this?! Or was she just savoring her little victory and just couldn't help sharing it (with me of all people)...
Ahh that sounds like total classic NPD behavior on MIL's part. Apparently, they believe that they are so much smarter than everyone else that they sometimes speak of their manipulations plainly. And because MIL does not have insight, she cannot take a moment to 'consider the audience' she is speaking to. With NPDs all they want IS an audience.
DeleteLike I said: sounds like we have the same mother-in-law.
ReplyDeleteHere are some of my MIL's favorite quotes. Or shall we call them "Mother-in-Law's Greatest Hits!". But these 'hits' are not part of the top-40 Billboard music chart 'hits'. These are verbal 'hits' meant to 'knock' the receiver on his or her 'emotional' rear end.
Here they are:
Greatest hit #1: "The people you intentionally hurt the most are the people you deeply love." In the beginning, I actually asked MIL to explain that one.
And that ushers in Greatest Hit #2: "Well, when you really love someone of course you will always hurt them. You feel so strongly about them that love becomes hate."
At that point I gave up trying to reason through that one with MIL. There was no place for reason to get a foothold anywhere in that mindset.
Greatest Hit #3: "Of course children are property. You give them a home, feed them, clothe them, and so you own them."
Greatest Hit #4: "My sons will always be my children and they must listen to the decisions I want to make for them. I am always right and I will always know more."
Her sons are both over 28 years old.
Greatest Hit #5: "You have ruined my relationship with my grandchildren because you have not sent them to ... ".
When she last brought that one up, I also tried to infuse the conversation with reason. It went like this:
Me: But, if my children don't take piano lessons, it has nothing to do with you getting to know them.
Mother-in-law: Well, it has everything to do with it. If they don't play piano then I cannot sit on the piano bench with them like I did with my younger son. I cannot teach them what I know."
Me: (trying again...) "But, you can still have a wonderful relationship with them. In fact, you are aware that both of them love building legos and could do that all day. They would be thrilled if you sat at the table with them..."
Mother-in-law: (Interrupting me this time...) "NO. No. NO. I hate playing legos. They need to learn piano."
Me: (Trying again, still maintaining a neutral tone...) "Well, until they play piano, I think they would find it very special if you would sit down with them and watch them play with legos."
Mother-in-law: (Interrupting again and this time yelling and waving hands) "NO! NO! I hate playing legos! I do not care about legos! I will not play legos! If they can't play piano then I cannot have a relationship with them and I will never know my grandchildren because of you."
...At that point I physically walked away....
Yes, friends, those are just a small sampling of my MIL's greatest hits. Does anyone see these going platinum? ;-)
OMG, It's hard even responding to someone talking like that, I would get so angry, especially when it is someone you can't avoid like your MIL... You can't reason with people who 'think' like this. I would probably get so confused by the insanity that I wouldn't say anything.
DeleteThe difference between our MILs is that yours is more openly insane. It seems like she thinks she's right and that she can fool anyone. My MIL went undercover the last few years, she's really careful about who hears what, she's playing everyone. She lives by the adage divide and conquer.
I had a N-'friend' once who also connected love and hate very strongly. She projected this on boys she liked but were not interested in her. She would say she had hurt me because that's what friends do, because if you really care about someone you hurt them.. Blahblahblah. The truth was that she was a very possessive, jealous person who was (and probably will always be) in total denial of her own feelings. This was her way of justifying her behaviour. She lacked any self-reflection.
Well, when someone lacks the ability to self-reflect and to have insight into their behavior, this is the hallmark of a personality disorder-- usually borderline or narcissist.
DeleteI am guessing that your "N" friend came from an abusive childhood where the circuitry between love and hate got inter-mingled and that might be all that she knew. That is sad. Regardless, it was not up for you or anyone else to be the settling ground where the "N" played the 'i love you and i hurt you game'.
As for your MIL, I would bet that she learned she had to be more sly in her attempts at manipulation. Somehow I would suspect that your MIL has the ability to use the overtly crazy card if it ever became to her benefit. Here's the conundrum that I am wrestling with in terms of your MIL's behavior. Your MIL appears to behave in many ways that would fit the description of classic borderline or narcissist. But, then we know that true BPDs and NPDs do not have insight into their role in difficulties. They do not self-reflect and it has never occurred to them that they need to self-reflect because it is everyone else who is the problem and who has the problem. But, it seems that your MIL has the discernment to know how to be manipulative, how to intentionally sabotage your marriage, and how to play victim or attempt to deflect taking criticism and responsibility. She knows she is being a pain and she has gone more underground with her meddling. That takes insight.
Okay, this is why they drive the rest of us crazy! 'Nuff said!
The N-'friend' is training to be a clinical psychologist in the near future. As far as I can tell, she's still fundamentally the same person and her warped visions/behaviours have not changed.
DeleteYour N friend is training to be a clinical psychologist?
DeleteHas she had any insight into her behavior and gotten help?
Well, we have the joke within the United States that doctors, psychologists, and psychiatrists specialize in their own disorders! My dad used to say, "There is no one crazier than the shrink!" (Shrink = psychiatrist)
But, there is some truth to the idea that many psychologists have gone into the field because they had bad childhoods or are trying to figure out their own lives. (Me included! Or rather, I enrolled in my own doctorate in an attempt to figure out whether it was me who was crazy or the MIL. I assumed it was me who was crazy and wanted to work on that).
But, I will say one thing-- some universities in the U.S. actually force their doctoral students in psychology to go and see a licensed psychologists themselves and undergo a battery of tests to see if they are mentally sound. Some schools require this before they allow the student to graduate. Though this could be thought of as a huge invasion in privacy, on the other hand, it might be an 'invasion' that is needed. Because many of us who have been the recipient of an NPD's bad behavior would know that if an NPD is put in clinical practice, they can actually cause a GREAT DFEAL of psychological damage to future clients. The university that I attend requires this. I have seen an analyst, undergone 40 hours of psychological testing. Yes, my test did show something and I do have a diagnosis. My diagnosis is inattentive type attention deficit disorder. My other soft diagnosis is that I tend to fall on the side of codependency in a way that is not healthy. I went through this testing 2 years ago and have been working on learning to establish boundaries in my own life.
But, that was all that they found that was core to my character. I do know of several students who were weeded out after they were evaluated and it was easy to spot them prior to the professional evaluation. So, I do kind of agree with making students undergo this kind of testing because I do not believe people should be in the field who can be emotionally harmful to others.
One more comment.
ReplyDeleteMy brother-in-law, her younger son, recently got married to a mini-MIL. More on that later-- and I swear I am not trying to be vindictive. My husband smelled that one coming from a mile away was actually the first one to mention it. I had been trying to give SIL (the new mini-MIL) the benefit of the doubt.
So, turns out MIL likes new SIL because they are very similar. With MIL someone is either 100% good or 100% evil. If my DH was not married to me, then I am sure new SIL would be MIL's target since new SIL is not a very nice person and has some very glaring issues. MIL's has devised a very interesting bait and switch tactic. When SIL does something that makes MIL angry when SIL visits MIL and FIL, MIL says that I was the one who did it. Now, keep in mind that I have never been within 2,000 miles of MIL/FIL's home when BIL and SIL have visited. So, MIL will inevitably have a bad visit with SIL, but after SIL leaves, MIL will call my husband and complain to him about something SIL actually did and then say that I was the one who did it and then she will use this as justification for why I am such an evil person. Yes, that is a very convoluted process indeed, so I will give you a sample conversation of what DH told me.
SIL and BIL visited MIL and FIL and it did not take them long to figure out SIL was a raging alcoholic. Now, once again, I am not trying to be vicious. I am describing behavior where SIL, although 30-years-old, is never SOBER. She doesn't eat-- ever-- and claims that she doesn't like food. Instead, she goes through bottles of wine from breakfast to midnight. She did that during a visit and FIL and MIL also noticed that SIL had turned BIL (their younger son) into a 'drinker'. After BIL/SIL leave, FIL is the first one to call my DH. FIL tells the truth to my DH and says that he is genuinely concerned about both SIL and BIL and genuinely fears for them. Fair enough. Husband agreed that he was a little alarmed as well but that it wasn't his business. Good boundary. Okay, the next day, MIL calls my DH and says that she is afraid that I have a problem with drugs and/or alcohol. (Here's a piece of the puzzle. My mom and I did not inherit the liver enzyme that process alcohol so neither of us drink alcohol. We have told this to MIL many times, when offered a drink, but MIL thinks we say this to cover our alcoholism. In fact, she is 'sure' of it because, after all, she is the only person in the world who is 'always right.'). So, when DH hears this from MIL, he is like, "What?!!! You mean SIL? Uh, your are talking about SIL, my wife doesn't drink." The MIL yells, says that he is defending an alcoholic, and then he finally hangs up.
Is this a case study on irrational thinking, or what?!!!!!! Personally, prior to getting married I had never heard of or known anyone who acted this weird.
"Okay, the next day, MIL calls my DH and says that she is afraid that I have a problem with drugs and/or alcohol. (Here's a piece of the puzzle. My mom and I did not inherit the liver enzyme that process alcohol so neither of us drink alcohol. We have told this to MIL many times, when offered a drink, but MIL thinks we say this to cover our alcoholism. In fact, she is 'sure' of it because, after all, she is the only person in the world who is 'always right.'). So, when DH hears this from MIL, he is like, "What?!!! You mean SIL? Uh, your are talking about SIL, my wife doesn't drink." The MIL yells, says that he is defending an alcoholic, and then he finally hangs up."
DeleteI almost started laughing hysterically reading this... (This is beyond tragic, it is just laughable).
The only good thing about this is, your MIL is so openly insane, there's no denying about it. I would say she's digging her own grave. Or is this so normal to your husband that he minimizes her ill intentions and writes it off as 'silly behaviour'.
PS-
DeleteJust wanted to say one more thing about MIL's sanity/insanity. MIL is very sneaky in that she can control when she wants to appear openly insane. I am still vacillating as to whether or not she is sane and VERY manipulative or completely off her rocker. My mentor (as seasoned licensed therapist who I consult about my own life) says that MIL is very manipulative, controlling, and agressive and that at the times when she appears to be insane, she is basically just "mind-f***ing" those around her. The word that I *** is actually my mentor's term for this, not mine! In the beginning, MIL was foolish enough to brag to me about how she manipulates and controls people, including her own husband. She told me an elaborate tale of how she manipulated him into marrying her, way back when. VERY bizarre stuff. So, she knows what she is doing, she gets a real kick out of what she does, and she brags about it. That's why I am still up in the air about her sanity versus insanity.
Part 1:
DeleteOkay, one more 'rant' about MIL's crazy-making and gas-lighting that causes me to believe that MIL pretends to be openly insane. Yes, that is a very convoluted idea, that someone pretends to be insane, and it would take a highly manipulative sociopath to pull it off.
Here are some things MIL has said to me that makes me think MIL's 'open insanity' is just another act and tool MIL uses as a smoke-screen. The ultimate goal is for her is not to be held accountable by her son. If he thinks that MIL is ill instead of a highly manipulative sociopath, he will attempt to continue a relationship with MIL out of guilt. After all, no good child abandons a legitimately ill parent. And, if a parent is legitimately mentally ill, it gives that parent carte blanche to treat people badly in the name of illness. (Or at least this logic would work with my DH because he is so riddled with guilt).
Part 2:
DeleteSo here we go:
The last time we visited, I confronted MIL about some lies that MIL was spreading. This involves new SIL's behavior. New SIL refused to eat MIL's cooking or anything else at MIL's house anytime she visited. On the other hand, each time I have visited MIL's house, I thank her profusely for cooking for us, help her clean the kitchen, and then compliment her cooking in front of everyone. She is a good cook and I will say nice things that are also sincere. I do this for the sake of keeping the peace. MIL is the type that needs constant praise from everyone or she starts getting very aggressive and hostile. So, MIL took my mom aside, literally broke into 'false' tears, and said to my own mom that I was a horrible person because each time I was at MIL's house I refused to eat her cooking and I refused to help her clean up. Now, my mom did not know about the whole thing with new SIL and felt sorry for MIL because she was crying. My mom came and took me aside and told me what my MIL had said and then said it was rude of me to treat MIL that way. You should have seen my jaw drop to the floor and steam come out of the top of my head. I got my DH and had my mom repeat to DH what MIL had said. Then his eyes bulged out and we both said to my mom in unison, "That is NEW SIL. MIL is telling lies again". Then my mom's jaw dropped to the floor and she was shocked. She asked my DH why MIL would do this and DH husband said it was beyond his comprehension and then apologized. (This was early in the visit). At the end of the visit, I confronted MIL on that as well as a few other things. First, she tried to deny that she said that to my mom, when she denied it, I said I was going to call my mom over to be part of the conversation. For some reason, that scared MIL and she actually admitted lying about me to my mom. I got angry and I asked her WHY she would do that.
Well, here was MIL's explanation. MIL said-- and I swear to you this is not embellished-- MIL said that after any event occurs in time, that AFTER it occurs, she can re-write the event in her mind to fit her own notion of how she perceives the world. I looked at her and said, "You can't do that. Truth is truth and what happened cannot be altered." MIL just looked at me and let me know that some people might believe what I said, about truth being truth, but that she (MIL) has given herself permission to re-write events to fit her own view of people. She frankly told me that she did not want to dislike new SIL so she attributed that bad behavior to me-- that she made a choice to do that and she would stick with it.
Now, though this sounds INSANE to anyone who is rational, this appears to be a pretty common trait among extreme narcissists. That is, when people behave in ways that threaten a narcissists world view, they perform these mental acrobatics so that they do not have to have their worldview threatened. They cannot have their worldview threatened because it is emotionally deadly to them. They are apparently so insecure and in so much pain (in some cases) that they have to build elaborate (false) views in order to function. MIL has decided that I am all bad and therefore needs SIL to be all good. SIL also doesn't inherently threaten MIL for several reasons. But that is another story indeed. So, if MIL were to see the actual truth of the situation, she would see that SIL was the one behaving badly and that would send her into some kind of narcissistic crisis that would hit at the core of her own sense of self.
Okay, thanks for hearing me out. I am finding that writing about all of this is allowing me to process it and gain understanding. This is a good thing because once I know what it is I am dealing with, I can actually 'deal with it' more effectively.
J,
ReplyDeleteThe sad part is that when DH and BIL were children, she acted like the above constantly and even worse than that. My DH became the rebellious one and tried to stand up to her. That enraged her anger. He told me one time that she had done something so cruel to him when he was 13 years old that we literally walked out the front door of the house and walked about 3 miles to the nearest police station. (He won't tell me what it was she did). He said he entered into the police station, told an officer the WHOLE story (which he still won't tell me) and the officier told him he was lying and that he would drive him home. So, he got in the officer's car and the officer delivered him right back to the hands of his abuser. (His mom). I only heard this story within the past two years. DH's younger brother had enough 'insight' to notice that if people stood up to their Mom, they got shot down and things were made worse. In order to survive, BIL has become the mindless clone of MIL. BIL is about 28 years old and MIL still purchases his clothes, his 'sexy' cologne (as MIL calls it), tells him what car to drive, what apartment to live in, where to go to school, and of course who he is allowed to date. Even when he is at work, he is expected to keep the line open and answer the phone. This guy literally has no thoughts or opinions of his own. I am sure you are asking "what is the pay off?" for BIL. Ever heard of someone selling their soul to the devil? Well, not literally-- and I do not personally believe in an entity called the devil. I think human beings behave in devilish ways sometimes and it is an excuse when they blame their own behavior on an external scapegoat such as a "devil". It seems like just another way for human beings to make sure they are not held accountable for actions. But, in a sense, BIL did 'sell his soul to the devil' because he receives large sums of money from FIL for 'obeying' MIL. FIL pays BIL outrageous sums of money to behave because when BIL behaves, it makes MIL happy. When BIL does not acquiesce, which is very rare, MIL behaves more extremely than usual and takes it out on FIL. She makes FIL's life so horrid that FIL gives BIL more money just to be obedient. By the way, I AM NOT jealous. I am the type who will literally live in a tent before I compromise my values in terms of money. I was raised to work hard and to make my own money, with or without a husband, or anyone else. I came from a middle class family and started working when I was 16 and worked all the way through university. Then, before I met my own DH, I worked 60 hours a week in the high tech industry (during the boom years), lived like a pauper, and stashed a whole bunch of money away in savings and the stock market. When he and I got married, I had a large investment fund, owned property, and had no debt. I am no saint, I just have always been firm in the belief that I pay my own way. This is one of the things that has really made my inlaws mad since I cannot be bought. Oh I have so many outrageous stories about that too. Feel like I should pen a "fictional" novel one day, tell the truth, change the names, and present it as fiction. To be continued...
Just a quick comment. Well, I can only say that I see parallels all over the place. About the insanity: my MIL uses it in the same way yours does. She will display insane behaviour to get what she wants. I will write more about it later.
ReplyDeleteHello J,
DeleteSo it seems like your MIL and my MIL graduated from the same 'school of manipulation'.
Okay, circling around a bit...
As you know my MIL's behavior has been so extreme that I have questioned my own sanity many times. After my second son was born, that's when I started doing a second Master's in psychology at the university. Had to only take a few since there was the first Master's from York. DH told me to go on for the PsyD because I enjoyed it and there was no way I was going to go back into high tech. The reason for that is because of the hours that are required of each employee within the industry. Like I said-- 60 hours a week on average. I worked those hours until second child was born and then realized I couldn't do it all. (Hence returning to school). Have been in the PsyD part time for a little while now and what is interesting is that the textbooks the program uses are heavy on two very ugly things: personality disorders and sexual abuse. One of the reasons I talk so much about PDs is because I have written several 20 page papers on them for classes. (Part of the curriculum). Don't know what the standard is in the UK now, but it seems the U.S. has made a shift to train therapists to identify PDs during the initial intake session. It seems to be a smart thing to do because if someone has a diagnosable PD it absolutely changes how a therapist works with them. Oh, a small piece of trivia-- one of the textbooks showed that most malpractice lawsuits against therapists are from PDs. That's probably why the industry has done a paradigm shift and now trains therapists to recognize them out of the gate. As they say, 'money talks' and lawsuits most definitely 'talk'! By the way, the thing I want to specialize in one day is learning how to treat people who have experienced childhood SA. Don't know what the numbers in the UK are, but SA cases in the US have reached epidemic proportions. There is also a move in the US for pedophilia to be classified as a "sexual orientation" so that its harm is downplayed. I will be one of the therapists fighting on the frontline to prevent pedophilia from being minimized and to ensure more measures to protect this country's children.
PS-
DeleteSo, not trying to come off as a 'know it all' on psychology topics. Just wanted to disclose my course of study so that there is some context for the analysis that I do in terms of PDs.
Slightly off topic again: Have found some research that would indicate a strong correlation between childhood sexual abuse and the later development of a personality disorder. When there are stories in the news that discuss some groups trying to normalize pedophilia, I literally want to tear my hair out and scream. If there is one thing in this world that I get absolutely vehement about eradicating, it is childhood SA. Now, more disclosure. I did not personally experience childhood SA. But, it has still impacted me because when I was growing up, I can name about a dozen friends who did experience it and they usually confided in me. Now, we were all children at the time and I felt as powerless to help my friends as they felt powerless to help themselves (at the time). So, I have been a witness to the destruction of it and I feel very guilty that I didn't have the tools to do anything about it when I was a child. I can still see the sad eyes of these friends in my own memory and it grips my heart. That's probably the other reason I have chosen the specialty that I have chosen. I want to help all of those kids that I could not help when I was but a child myself. But, there were several other influencers throughout my life that caused me to become interested in psychology as a profession and these things are far from being pleasant topics.
PPS-
ReplyDeleteJ,
Thank you for allowing me to analyze all of my ideas on your blog. Really appreciate that you have made the place and the space to discuss these topics for anyone who needs to vent in a place that is non-judgmental and supportive. Really, really appreciate it, J!
It is very difficult to keep all of it in and just swallow the frustration. When I tried that in the past. I started feeling very down. Plus, most of the time cannot talk to DH about it because he is too close to the situation. Sometimes he is willing to listen and discuss the situation, but even when he does discuss it, it is apparent he gets profoundly down. From his perspective, I can only imagine how he feels. We know that all humans have a fundamental need to bond to their parents/caregiver. This need to bond is stronger than the need for food and stronger than the will to live. Rather, if nurturing care is denied a human child (or even baby monkey and a few other mammals) the infant will 'fail to thrive' and many times pass away. So, when someone has an abusive parent, biology takes over and logic goes out the window. The biology is to bond regardless of how abusive the parent. Then the trauma bond forms and adult children who were abused are still many times bound to their abusive parents. It's not logical-- even they know it is not logical-- but still they cannot break away. This is my DH's case and I see how much the situation eats away at him. I have never told him he must make a choice between me and his mom, but she has told him this many times in different ways. She has basically told him that if he wants her approval, a decent relationship with her, a crumb of emotional support, then I need to go. One of the problems is, she was trying to choose a spouse for him prior to him getting married. He couldn't stand the women his mom was setting him up with. He told me they were all younger versions of his mom and he didn't want to be married to that. So, not only does MIL require that he get a divorce, she also requires that she choose his future wife, purchase a house next to MIL, and then allow her to take over the raising of the children. In the end, that is her ultimate beef with me. I cannot and will not be controlled. I feel very bad for DH because I don't know what I would do if my parents pulled this stuff. I would feel profoundly alone I think. While a spouse can be a best friend/lover/companion all rolled into one, a spouse is not a parent and so there is a void. I feel sad for him on many levels.
So again, thank you for providing this venting outlet.
-S
I'm always seeking for solutions, what to do? We have done the boundary setting. Hostilities have increased, now there is the MILs silent treatment. I want to have a plan and a strategy. I have to be very clear with what I want for myself, where my boundaries are and what I will do to protect my boundaries.
ReplyDeleteI ordered the book Bullies below the radar, written by Ben Leichtling. It might be of interest to you too. Anyway, if you want I will keep you posted.
His website is interesting too, I would say have a look there. Your MIL is a relentless bully, same as my MIL.
J,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the book recommendation-- will definitely need to get it as well and read it soon. Also agree that both our MILs are bullies at the heart of this. This is why I have always had a hard time saying that my MIL is mentally ill. My husband and FIL discuss MIL in terms of being mentally ill. FIL's mantra is, "MIL is mentally ill, so we absolutely must acquiesce to her demands." Like I said in one of my posts, MIL BEHAVES in ways that would make many people believe she is mentally ill and deserves pity and understanding. Have found that the mentally ill card is one she plays when she doesn't have other cars up her sleeve. Her end goal is to bully people into tolerating her behavior. Once she has bullied them into compliance, she can control them.
As for a plan of action... have been mulling this over myself. Started brainstorming something in a word document yesterday about all of this, but it was poorly organized. Any ideas on your own plan of action?
Absolutely agree with what you say here. My MIL is never responsible, so she's either physically ill (Alzheimer's, cancer, heart-attacks, sever heart conditions,...) or she's a little confused (she doesn't want to be seen as metally disordered) forgetting how she has behaved. Blahblablah.
ReplyDeleteThe basic strategy/plan of action we have here at the moment is that my husband is not calling her and that we have decided it is up to her to take the first step (she will never do this, so this creates a MIL free time zone for now). I will not accept her in our house and I will not go there (same applies to our children). She has to make amends first (she will never do this). I will not accept any fake apologies, excuses or justifications. I am protecting myself, my emotional and physical health.
She probably will use her husband as her henchman, initiating contact instead of her. FILs birthday is coming up. Always a good time to turn up the emotional pressure. No strategy or plan here yet as far as my husband is concerned. But the other strategy still applies, I will not go there and my children neither.
J,
ReplyDeleteChecked out Ben Leichtling's site and saw some very good resources. He certainly seems to get the whole dynamic and all of its tiring permutations.
As for your plan, that is also literally verbatim our current plan. Has the heat been turned up since FIL's birthday is soon?
Expect the heat to turn up here when older son's birthday occurs late in the spring.
Until then, just fortifying myself and trying to develop a pro-active plan.
How about you?
Hi Sarah, Same here :-). Will let you know what I'm going to do, in the meantime working on it. Have to focus on my studies too, behind schedule now. Keep me posted on your progress! J.
ReplyDeleteHi J,
ReplyDeleteOne more question-- may I ask what you are studying? As I mentioned before, I am enrolled in a doctorate in psychology and hope to one day work fulltime with those who are on the long journey toward healing from past trauma. (I have a long way to go toward being a good clinician and my hope of hopes is to continually weed out my own misperceptions and flaws so that anything that I learn can benefit others).
Sarah
Hi Sarah, Sorry I can't give you that information because I do not post identifying information on this blog, just a precaution. A question to you: Does your husband feel the need to have a strategy in place? J.
ReplyDeleteHello J,
ReplyDeleteAs for my husband, well, most of the time he does not think that we need a formal strategy. He'll throw out ideas on how to deal with the situation and then usually won't follow through. There have been cases where he promised to follow through on a boundary and then caved in under stress. That's when things have gotten horrible with MIL.
My husband refused to set all of the small boundaries over the years and that allowed MIL to ramp up her behavior. Now, it has gotten to the point where she has stopped talking to my husband for a while because he has started setting boundaries that should have been set a long time ago. MIL's reasoning is that her son is not "allowed" to set boundaries on her behavior because she is the mother. As of late, she has made it clear to him that she will cut him out of her life completely if he doesn't meet her demands. MIL's demands are that MIL wants to raise our kids during the summer in her home, that MIL wants to make all major decisions for OUR family, and that most of all, MIL wants free reign to attack me verbally to my kids and to DH.
Now, when I read the above, I am thinking, WHAT KIND OF MOM DOES THAT? I mean, if you changed the names of the players to husband and wife, and if "husband" were an alcoholic or something, then such a dynamic with the wife setting boundaries would make MORE sense. But, still would not be the healthy way to deal with things-- especially the part about wanting free reign to verbally attack family members to the children.
So, the conclusion that I have come to is that MIL actually sees herself as the "wife" of her own son. (At least emotionally speaking). Well, I guess that must make me the "mistress" in the situation.
Back to the original question of strategy-- in the past, my husband did not feel that a strategy needed to be in place. But, as of late, he is more open to the idea of seriously discussing one.
It makes me very sad to watch my husband coming to the realization that his mother was never a "mother" in the normal sense of the word.
PS-
ReplyDeleteTotally respect the fact that you are not providing so much information that you could be readily identifiable.
I am also trying not to give too much identifiable information about myself either. May need to delete some of my previous posts one day!
Hi Sarah,
ReplyDeleteMy MIL thinks exactly the same, her son is not allowed to set boundaries with her because she’s the mother. And now he has done so she started the silent treatment.
‘MIL's demands are that MIL wants to raise our kids during the summer in her home, that MIL wants to make all major decisions for OUR family, and that most of all, MIL wants free reign to attack me verbally to my kids and to DH’.
I’m speechless, who does she think she is...!! She really wants to take over. This together with the other things she has said, such as her son having to divorce you and she wanted you dead... Are you ever afraid of what she would be capable of doing?
My MIL’s ultimate dream would be to separate me from my husband and children and then have free reign over them. When we visited them last year, we were only there for a minute or so when she said to my husband (only addressing him), it would be so nice if you would come visit us with the children very soon (I was standing next to him). The she turned to me and said, oh what a nice pair of boots you are wearing (?!?!).
Last year around June I had a nightmare: My husband had been cheating on me with an older woman and I found out. He didn’t feel guilty at all and was really calm about it. Than the older woman walked into our house as if she owned the place and started going through our things to see if there was something she wanted to take. She didn’t acknowledge that I was there and acted as if she was absolutely entitled to do what she did. I just stood there and watched it. This nightmare was sort of an eye opener to me. This was how I felt, he was cheating on me with his mother and I couldn’t say anything about it.
Apart from this I have said to him on more than one occasion: you are not her husband, your father is her husband. This is not your problem. (All of this because she was using him as a surrogate husband, keeping him away from me). This is maybe not that clearly written but I’m sure you know what I mean.
She called me ‘this woman you’re seeing..’. As a mother you don’t talk to your son about his girlfriend in this way, do you? It sounds more like a jealous ex. She also talked about the wife of his brother as, well whenever he has ‘a woman’ in his life, he doesn’t listen to me anymore, he listens to her..
All kind of sick I think.
Hello J,
ReplyDeleteWow, must admit that my stomach immediately knotted when I read about the nightmare that you had. You hit the nail on the head there-- the dream is a complete metaphor that describes the dynamic to a "T'. Whilst your husband has not made his mother his mistress, would certainly wager a bet that his mother has attempted to force herself into the role of the surrogate emotional mistress of her son. Will say it again" WHAT KIND OF MOM DOES THAT!?
Truly, when I read your account of how your mother in law blatantly told your husband she wanted to see him and the kids but not you, all I could do was shake my head and nod in absolute recognition. Wow, makes me so angry that you had to experience this. My heart sinks reading about it because I can seriously empathize. I have felt that kind of pain and that kind of pain hurts. It is like being punched so hard in the gut and getting all of the air knocked from your lungs. Only, you never saw that "punch" coming and the others around you neither saw it nor register the fact that you are in pain. Well, this is what it feels like on an emotional level.
As for you telling your husband that he is not his mother's husband, for a second there I thought I was reading my own words. Cannot tell you how many times in the past year that I have said these exact words to my husband. In fact, I said something like that tonight. Sometimes my husband gets in these moods where he gets into a tizzy fit if I want to hug him or solicit affection. (This is not always the case and it is not sometimes the case. It is a rare occurrence). Tonight I went to give him a hug and I sweetly said that I wished he and I could have found quiet time today since it has been filled with errands. He bristled and then said I was criticizing him. I asked him immediately to back up and tell me why he felt criticized. I repeated my words calmly and said I just did not understand how he could take offense. Well, he told me that my words were not offensive. He continued to say that I meant to say something different than what I said. And then he said that what I actually "meant" was that he was a failure and not meeting my needs. I said, "HUUHH?!!" Then, I looked at him squarely in the eye and I said, "This is about your mom. Your entire life your mom has forced you to meet her emotional needs in very unhealthy ways. You are actually talking to your mom, not to me. And by the way, in NORMAL husband and wife relationships each partner gladly gives affection to the other and meets the other's needs with joy. Giving and receiving love is not a burden or a bribe." Well, those words flew out of my mouth and I thought for sure he would be angry. Instead, he was struck speechless and made a face that looked like he was full of disgust. Then he said something along the lines of him hating what his mother did to him and then he walked off. Later he told me that what I said was unfortunately true but that he didn't want to talk about it. Then he gave me a hug. My husband was doing so well for a veyr long time, but as of late we are slipping back into the old patterns of relating. I told you that I actually separated from him for a about a month a couple of years ago. I took the kids and left and went somewhere he could not find me. That may sound a bit drastic, but at the time, I felt I had to leave to break the cycle. His behavior was ramping up so quickly and he was on constant angry tirades. I left and figured if we needed to divorce, so be it. We didn't divorce and our relationship became 100 tikmes better after that. But now, he is slipping back into his old ways and taking out all of his anger at his mom on us. Truly, I do not know what I will do this time, but I believe I am in for quite a ride.
PS-
ReplyDeleteAs for being afraid of what my MIL would be capable of doing-- of course I am! I have brought this up to my husband as well, but he always says that his mom is the type that thinks angry thoughts and fantasizes about hurting people but that she would never do it. My own mom and dad are very aware of the situation and we are on our guard. I keep several friends in the loop as well. MIL has shown her violent tendencies many times and I take that behavior seriously. Don't know what to do except stand my ground, keep friends and family in the loop, and then keep the NC going.
Any thoughts or different perspective on what I should do? Kinda hard to think clearly when one is in the middle of the situation.
Found an interesting blog post here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.raisinggreatmen.com/2012/06/6-signs-that-youre-dating-a-mamas-boy.html
Copy and pasting the gems from this article:
"A mom who is in a healthy, loving, supportive and mutually respectful marriage or relationship will NOT use her son as a surrogate spouse...A mom who is a needy, attention seeker will change the dynamics of her relationship with her son to meet her emotional needs. She is the gatekeeper that will dismiss and destroy any woman who dares interfere with this relationship....This mom controls and manipulates her son through various tactics and is a mastermind of creating the illusion that they need each other."
Hmmm... dismiss and destroy any woman who attempts to interfere with the mother/son relationship... guess the author of that blog has also met MILs like ours.
She sure has met the same species. I read the post and the MIL falls into every category, except for the 'yes' mom that is how she is behaving with her other son.
DeleteOne more thing...
ReplyDeleteJ, do you have an anonymous email address that I can send something to? I have been putting together an "Adult Son's Bill of Rights" in a word document and it is going to be too large to post into the comments. Was hoping that I could get your feedback on it. Want to present it to my husband one day.
Hi Sarah, In the right column you can find my email address. I however do not have the time to give you feedback. I have to devote my energy to deal with the crisis in my marriage and I have a thesis to work on. I've been looking for the right kind of help and have found an excellent coach. I have had my first coaching session yesterday and it has been very helpful, such a relief :-). I think that would be good for you too, having someone that would give you solid and practical advice on what to do specifically to improve your situation. You do not have to prove you are a good person, you do not have to understand the whole world, you have got to protect yourself and your children. Your husband needs to grow up and stand up for himself and protect his children and his marriage. Please keep posting here, I will be reading, as will a lot of other people. Wishing you the best! J.
ReplyDeleteHello J,
ReplyDeleteIt is wonderful to hear that you found a coach and that your first meeting was helpful :-) Yay!
Thanks for the feedback on protecting my children first and not needing to understand the whole world. I certainly appreciate that. Also, appreciate that you have to devote time and energy to solidifying your marriage and working on your thesis. Though I am but one person, from the outside looking in, I clearly see that you have the tools to succeed in working things through with your DH. Also wanted to add that your writing is quite remarkable and heartfelt and am sure that your thesis panel(s) will appreciate your style and eloquence.
Will post again soon!
Take care, J :-)
Thanks Sarah, I appreciate what you are saying and I wanted to say that you have helped me greatly by sharing your stories here. I am sure these posts will help a lot of other people too in feeling less isolated and encouraged to do something about it. Looking forward to reading more from you :-). J.
ReplyDeleteJ,
ReplyDeleteActually, thank you for allowing me to post here! Realize that my writing gets rather long-winded and most people may not have the patience to wade through it. And thank you for setting up this blog. Sure hope that these posts are helpful to folks. The one thing I
will say is that they are brutally honest and unfiltered. That is what is great about
the web is it sometimes allows people to speak more freely than they would out in
public. In fact, my husband has asked me many times not to share anything with
anyone of our friends about his parents and what they do. The situation causes
him to feel incredibly ashamed. He doesn't care if I blog anonymously and read
other blogs-- just doesn't want me telling this kind of detail to people in our
face-to-face social circle. I used to think he asked me not to talk because
he wanted to take away my voice on this matter. Now I realize that he asks me
these things because the shame that he feels over his parents is absolutely
crippling to him and he feels people will abandon him if they find out he
is not as normal as he pretends to be. This appears to be part and parcel for
those who grew up in emotionally abusive homes.
J, thanks again for everything and hope that all is well. I do keep my
fingers crossed for your situation. You are a good, intelligent, well-meaning
person and I am positive that this is all going to work out for you.
Hi Sarah, I want to share two things with you. First of all, I learned shame is only appropriate if you're accountable for the behaviour. He's not, it is his mother, so he needs to free himself of the shame, he is not to blame. (I think your husband wants to keep it under the rug, this helps him with denying and not addressing the problem). This leads to the second thing, I realized after speaking with my coach, that in order to change things my husband should start acknowledging that there is a huge problem with his mother and that her behaviour is rotten, AND NOT ONLY TO ME! My coach said that first HE has to tell his children about the mean and nasty things their grandmother has been doing to him and to me, IN MY PRESENCE (telling them all she has done [in your case, e.g. his mother wants him to divorce you], telling them that people who behave like that aren't allowed in our house or near us, we need to protect them and us, only if her behaviour changes and she apologises for ALL she has done and shows change in her behaviour then after a period of testing and good behaviour she will be allowed near them and us) , then to his father, then to other family, friends etc... I absolutely agree with him and I think this is key to change. J.
ReplyDeleteHello J,
ReplyDeleteYour (truly) wonderful words of wisdom...
"First of all, I learned shame is only appropriate if you're accountable for the
behaviour. He's not, it is his mother, so he needs to free himself of the shame,
he is not to blame." Bingo!
But, need some advice on the "how" of this particular point. Here is why:
A "smart" abuser knows that their abuse is only truly effective if they can
1) make the victim believe whatever it is that the abuser says or does is
correct, and 2) If the victim one day starts to question the abuser's actions,
the abuser will have muddled the victim's mind to the extend that he feels
that he caused the abuse, then 3) If the victim some how or another
one day has the epiphany that it actually was the abuser's fault (and not
the victim's) then the victim becomes flooded and paralyzed with
profoundly shameful feelings. The victim will then embark on an inner
dialogue where he says something to the effect of: "I am a HORRIBLE person
for even entertaining the thought that my dear mother/father/friend
is anything less than a wonderful person. I am shameful for even thinking
this way when mother/father/friend has only been so wonderful to me."
I did not learn this from my psychology books, I learned this from
living with a husband who was raised in a profoundly abusive
home and watching him attempt to process events and interactions
with his own parents that continue to be profoundly abusive.
This has been the major roadblock in terms of my
husband's healing. Rather, he has not yet been able
to embark on a path of healing because he is caught in
that cycle described above.
Now, I am seriously getting tears in my eyes when writing
this because I am very sad that he had to go through this and
continues to be emotionally harmed since he won't go completely
no contact. (Have noticed that when I am confronted with something
emotionally painful, one of my coping mechanisms is trying to
over-intellectualize things.)
PS-
ReplyDeleteOn a different topic, have you ever noticed that our pets are
easier to have a wonderful relationship with than some humans?
(Did not say all humans-- just some-- especially the ones like
the in-laws). The other reason am very sad tonight is because our
beloved dog of almost 10 years fell very ill. Took him to the vet today
with my older child and expected that it wasn't serious. Unfortunately,
it was serious and the vet did not have the sense to edit what she told
me in front of my son. My son has been crying all evening and doesn't
know what to do. The vet wanted to euthanize the dog right there and
then, (which totally sent my son into the kind of tears where one almost
convulses), so I asked the vet to give our dog pain killers and take other
palliative measures to make the dog comfortable. Then I took him
home, made him comfortable in his bed, and do not expect the dog
to last the night. Very, VERY sad. Got me to thinking for the thousandth
time that pets are so loyal, so loving, so caring, sweet and gentle. Pets
are trustworthy in that if their people treat them well, the pet reciprocates
with 100 times the love than they receive. Animals are so very special
and so very comforting. Makes me so sad on so many levels that our dog,
who was really like my first child, will be going into the great beyond tonight.
Please light a candle for "my first child" if the sprit moves you to do so.
Would appreciate it.
So, back to the subject of my husband... what is truly tragic is that his
"guilt and shame" mechanism is so strong that he cannot recognize in
good faith that there is something wrong with his mom. It has occurred to
him many times that this is the case and he has even heard me out a couple
of times on what I see, but almost as quickly as he realizes something
is wrong, he starts drowning in this overwhelming sense of guilt for
thinking that way. Then, he starts to rationalize his mom's behavior
and pretty soon he has rationalized it to the point that he rewrites her
as a good and self-sacrificing mom and himself as a selfish and ungrateful son.
The conclusion that I have come to is that his mom is a "smart" abuser.
What I mean by that is, this type of abuser has enough insight as to
the harm that they cause others and they do it willfully. Have questioned many times
why on earth someone would do that and the only conclusion that I can reach
is that it is about power and control. Read somewhere recently that whereas
normal people seek profound love and connection with others, there are a few
abnormal people who find love and connection boring and who get "high"
off of dominating and controlling others. The control and domination becomes
a drug for them. Reading that, it seemed a solid explanation for why husband's
mom behaves the way she does. But, there is no comfort in it-- just sadness
and frustration knowing that there are people who do not relate to love.
The over-riding question for me is: how do I help my husband break through
the guilt and the shame that he feels so that he can at least take a more
objective look at the situation with his mom. Then how do I support him
so that he can "own" the feelings he has and the conclusions that he comes
to so that he can start moving forward. It seems that as long as that guilt
and shame mechanism is there, he cannot move forward.
Any ideas?
I'm so sorry to hear about your dog and it must be heartbreaking to see your son experiencing this. You can't protect them from loss..
DeleteWell, today the dog got worse and my husband and I took our kids to my parents house while we took the dog back to the vet. Our dog was in a profound amount of pain and the vet let us know that there was nothing that could be done. His entire bowel/stomach/elimination system had failed and it was gone for good. There was no going back and we made the difficult decision to let the vet put him to sleep. It's interesting because I was at the bedside of my grandmother when she passed away. She died from renal failure and her death was prolonged and painful. We were close and I was by her side until the end. But, I had never had to put a pet to sleep. In the past, all of my pets, without exception, passed on without having to be put to sleep. This was a horrible decision because it was one I said I would never do. The dog's pain was clear and he was vomiting and stumbling around. My husband and I sat on the floor and sobbed. After the dog was given valium (the first step) I asked the vet to give it a half an hour before the final dose was administered. I made sure the dog was unconscious. But up to that moment, we held him, told him how much we loved him and I prayed for him. I had to leave the room when the final dose was administered. My husband was brave enough to stay there holding him until the very end. I feel absolutely terrible. While the valium was kicking in, the dog kept trying to "rally" and it was evident he did not want to let go. My intuition was that he did not want to let go because the dog always saw himself as our guardian. He was acting as if he was trying to hold out so that he would not let us down. To watch him bravely struggle and try to be there for us tore my heart out. In fact, to say it tore my heart out was an understatement. When it was over, his vet and my husband came out of the room sobbing. Two grown men sobbing. (The vet is great because he is a profoundly compassionate person and loves animals). My husband sobbed for a good hour afterwards and we drove around figuring out what we would tell the kids. For all the time I had been married, I have never witnessed my husband in tears. I have seen him shed a tear and I have seen his eyes water up. But I have never seen him go into deep, convulsive sobs and cry about how much the dog meant to him. (I had done my share of that during the morning and it was his turn). Though it might be a strange thing to say, this might end up being a good thing. My husband was not allowed to have feelings when he was growing up, let alone cry. Sometimes when people cry they are able to 'reintegrate' painful emotions from the past, process them, and expel them through tears.
DeleteRegardless, a very sad day for all of us. I have always loved animals and see them as family members of sorts. It is always hard to lose them :-(
PPS-
ReplyDeleteSorry, J, am being long-winded again. Wanted to share a heartbreaking story
about DH. This story is certainly symbolic of how his mom not only views others
as objects, but it also demonstrates that his mom literally doesn't understand
the phenomenon of loving or needing to be loved. (His mom understands
"adoration", in that she wants to be adored as if she were a God-like figure
by her sons, but she does not understand love. Two completely different things!)
So here is the story:
One time when we were visiting in-laws a few years back, my mother-in-law
was telling a story about when my husband was 2-years-old. She was telling
this story because she thought that it was humorous and that my husband
should be embarrassed by the stupid way in which he behaved when he was 2.
So, it was my in-laws, my husband, and me, and MIL was saying that when
husband was 2 years old, he slept in a small bed in the next room. She said
that he was annoying because when she would try to fall asleep, my (
2-year-old) husband would cry out in the dark over and over again
the phrase, "Do you love me?" HIs mom snorted and talked about how stupid
and annoying it was that he did that. She said she would yell for him to
be quiet, go to sleep, and get over it. I watched my husband, who was silent,
and some tears formed in his eyes. He was completely quiet. (Of course his
mom didn't notice this because she was too busy ridiculing him). When
I even write that story, let alone think of it, my stomach knots up and
it is like I can sense his profound pain and loneliness at that point in time.
Have also realized it has been the exact opposite of how I have treated my
own kids. When I first became a mom, I remember feeling immediately
overwhelmed with this profound sense that I wanted to impart a deep
feeling of love and of self-worth to my children. I remember thinking to
myself, "If nothing else, I need to do things that help them feel how profoundly
loved they are as they go through life." During my own life, I have held the
conviction that love is the most important thing in the world, the greatest
gift, and more important than any material possession or position of status.
From where I sit, nothing could be more important than knowing how to
give love and receive it in return. It might be this very outlook on life that
will create a gulf between me and my in-laws. Our different outlooks cannot
co-exist and I am trying to be at peace with this. But, more importantly, I
really want to help my husband heal.
I think it is absolutely disgusting and heartless of your MIL. Imagine a little 2 year old... Are you crazy? What an evil witch. I feel a knot in my stomach reading this. What do you do when your 2 year old is crying? You go there pick them up, hold them and tell them you love them. Then you hold them for as long as it takes. I think this speaks volumes of your FIL too, where was he. Does he think this is funny? All the more reason to stay away from them.
DeleteReminds me of a picture of my husband around the same age sitting crying in a cornfield. He got lost and scared and started crying for his parents. What did they do, grab a camera and take a picture of him. They thought it was very funny to see him sitting there helplessly crying his heart out. So they took a picture instead of picking him up and giving him a hug. What can I say...
DeleteFor some reason I have never found human suffering funny-- I don't know why!
Delete(Sarcasm on my part!)
On a serious note, we certainly have similar in-laws.
Maybe this sounds a bit dramatic, but I truly sense some sadism in people who laugh at human suffering. This seems to be the story of my MIL's life. She loves movies that are sad and/or violent. She relishes stories about people's bad luck or people getting harmed. Remember one time I had to tell her to stop talking about something she saw on the news. The last time they visited (quite a while ago) we were all sitting in the living room and the kids were there. MIL starts talking about some news story where a Chinese toddler wandered into traffic and got squished. Then she went on and on about the videos she saw and how squished the body was. I was horrified and I actually got tears in my eyes because she was talking in such a disturbing way. I asked her to change the subject and she took offense. A few minutes later, my FIL took me aside and told me that the "problem" with me was that I was "too sensitive" and was over-reacting. Then I brought up the fact that the kids were there and it was not a topic for kids to listen to. He just shrugged and said it was part of life and that once again, I over-reacted to things.
Juts one more instance of callousness.
Hi Sarah, From reading what you write I think that your husband needs professional help, someone who can help him overcome his feelings of shame and get him to start talking about it. I do understand you feel sorry for him but I think there is a danger of assuming the role of 'the therapist' of your husband which could reinforce him to stay in 'a victim role', apart from this creating a unequal balance in your relationship. Personally, however harsh this may sound, I don't feel sorry for people who stay in a victim role, I think your husband should be taking care of his kids not his mother. He can be ashamed of the situation all of his life or start doing something about it, this way giving his children an important example. What is more important, him feeling ashamed or giving his children a better life. Feeling sorry for him, however understandable, won't change his attitude. A way of starting to change the situation could be to find someone who can help the both of you to set out a strategy on what to do and insist that your husband is a part of this and that he needs to start talking and acknowledging what is going on. Well anyway that's my take on it. Talking as much to you as to myself. Hope you find a way to start changing things for the better. J.
ReplyDeleteHello J,
DeleteCouldn't agree more with your assessment. So, to cut to the chase, here is where my relationship hit several brick walls. To make a long story short, in the beginning, we saw three different marriage counselors over a period of time. Each attempt at therapy met the same end: sooner or later, each therapist discovered that my in-laws, especially my MIL need to be out of out lives and each therapist recommended husband go no contact. Each time that happened, husband wouldn't go back because he felt the therapists did not understand his situation OR that only terrible people went no contact. Still, that did not prevent me from working on myself and working on and off with a trusted therapist so that I could discern where and why to set boundaries. My own parents did not do me a favor when they taught me to always give others the benefit of the doubt, "turn the other cheek" even when that proverbial other cheek is red and swollen, and to look for ways to build bridges toward everyone. But, let me also state that their advice only applied to social/family relationships and verbal/emotional interactions. My parents also taught me that it was appropriate to cut all ties if someone ever became physically violent or abusive.
Part 2: (I had exceeded the character limit and had to break the post into 2)
DeleteWhat never occurred to my parents was that there are people in this world who can do as much damage as someone who physically abuses merely with their words and the way they treat others. They were 'sheltered' in that neither or them came from extremely dysfunctional homes. Theirs were just normal 1950's households where there was the garden variety bickering, but no out-and-out narcissism, physical abuse, or emotional abuse. Their parents lived through the great depression, fought in WW2, and were too busy working hard, sacrificing for their children (my parents), and teaching good values. That was their world and so it never even occurred to them that there were people who could do incredible harm without ever lifting a physical finger. Anyhow, in working on myself, my mantra has been that I am trying to learn what a "normal" reaction to conflict is. What my parents taught me was not normal. Am also learning boundary setting since that wasn't taught either. Once again, my parents came from families where everyone relied heavily on everyone else for support and so there was a sense of 'enmeshment', but it was not toxic enmeshment since the family members played fair and were genuinely supportive. With narcissists, they set a goal to get people enmeshed with them and it's NOT about being genuinely supportive and caring about other people as much as they care about themselves. So, my journey has been learning when it is appropriate to set boundaries and WHY it is appropriate. I have always been the type that literally would take my coat off in the middle of winter and give it to a homeless person on the street who did not have one. I did this a lot during the winter of 2007/2008 when we had an unseasonably cold winter and when I was still working in a career that allowed me not to see money as a concern. Now, I still do that kind of thing to some extent, BUT, I am learning not to do the "emotional" equivalent of giving my coat to anyone and everyone. That means I am learning that I do not have to constantly put everyone else's needs above my own. Talking with a therapist has been invaluable in working all that out. And it has also helped me see my own relationship more clearly. However, just because I am working on myself does not mean my husband wants to battle his own demons-- i.e. his parents. This is really the crux of why I have started to vent online to women like you who are experiencing things that are eerily similar. Talking with a therapist once in a while is great, but it also helps to hear the perspectives of women in the same situation.So, it seems my bottom line remains the same-- I keep on keeping on, talk to others in the same situation, and keep attempting to get my own sense of self and boundaries clear. It is inevitable that the day will come when my husband is going to have to make the choice between me or his parents. So, all I can do is just prepare by getting stronger and stating my own needs more clearly. Really don't know what else I can do for now since it has not gotten so bad that a divorce is in order. Finally, who knows if I am even seeing all of this clearly, which is the final reason I reach out to other women in similar situations. Have found that when I am in the middle of these things it is hard to "see the forest for the trees".
Hi Sarah,
DeleteI will follow your progressions with interest :-). I absolutely understand not seeing the forest for the trees when you're in the middle of it, especially when the pressure is put on. Writing has always helped me with that.
At the start of December 2012 I drew a line, after yet another incident. I said to my husband, this is it, I'm done with it. I will not accept MIL (but then some far less flattering terms) behaving like this to me, not ever again. I will not accept her playing games at our expense. She cannot come here and stay in our house, not for a second until she starts to make amends. She needs to prove to us now that she is an adult and that she is responsible for her own behaviour. She needs to start making things right.
All was falling into place for me. It felt like walking through a doorway and knowing I would never go back. I decided to start this blog to have a healthy place to vent and possibly help others. Writing what had happened through the years helped me oversee the bigger picture even better. I just knew there was no going back anymore. After our children were born she essentially was given a new chance, but slowly and determinedly she has been ramping up her hostilities especially when we started setting boundaries with her. She is not to be trusted and very toxic to me, my husband, our relationship and this way also to our children. And I now saw very clearly that she would never never ever give up and if she would get the chance she would only use it to make our lives more miserable, this is her mission in life. I wasn't going to let that happen, I have better things to do with my life. I am not a puppet in her play. She had crossed the line once too often.
I am slowly letting it sink in. I am glad I found someone who can help us going through this process. I am slowly adjusting to the idea of never seeing this woman again. She will need to do things to be back in our lives again (that of me and my children) that she will never ever do, but without doing this she will not be alowed here or to see her grandchildren. Thinking of giving FIL a chance to see his grandchildren if he wants to, we will see how this works out, but this is at the moment not of primary concern.
Important now is what my husband decides to do. Our coach is asking him to state what he wants and be explicit about it, something my husband has always avoided. I will see where that goes. I'm curious to know what he comes up with, he's trying to draw me in, but it his turn. He needs to think about what he wants now and where he wants to go.
J.
Hello J,
DeleteI am really interested to see what your husband decides to do. Can I ask how he feels about his mom? Does he see her for what she is or is he still stuck in the fantasy that the way her behavior is interpreted is a big misunderstanding. That is, the fantasy that underneath, she really IS a good person but just doesn't know how to communicate that.
I confronted my husband again last night. He had chosen, of his own accord, bot to speak to his mom for a while. However, after the dog died, he unraveled and called his parent's home line where he knew she would answer. She did answer and my husband's attitude has completely changed after his short time spent on the phone with his mom. He is stomping around the house again, getting irrationally angry, nit-picking, blaming etc. Last night I confronted him and told him that once again, there is a correlation between him talking to his parents (especially his mom) and his foul moods. That conversation just followed the same circular pattern it always does and no progress was made. He will admit his mom is "very ill" and he will admit that what she does is wrong, but he still sits on the fence and hesitates cutting her off completely. I won't continue this merry-go-round for the rest of my life, so I realize that I may have to ask him for an amicable divorce in earnest. Do I want a divorce? NO. If his parents weren't there guilting him and baiting him, would he be a calm person? YES. Most if the time he is a pretty great partner and it would be hard for me to leave. I love him dearly. But, there will come a time when he is going to have to make the choice between his parents (and divorce) OR therapy in earnest to save the marriage (while cutting off his parents).
By the way, I owed you the latest most outrageous story from several weeks ago. I realized there were some things in there that could get his parents in trouble, so I did not end up writing the story. I can't air the really dirty laundry. But, I will tell you the latest thing that went on that was related to this other thing. His dad was offering him money. I told my husband I didn't want and and we also didn't need it. My husband lives in a world of scarcity even though he is very blessed. He and I both came from families that did not have money when we were growing up. (My parents still dont' have money). I pulled myself up financially by working in the software industry for years and saving large sums of money. My attitude was that if I wanted money in my bank account, I would earn itself myself and not even take it from a husband. But, my husband is susceptible to having money waved in front of his face by his parents. Before he met me, he took out enormous student loans to go to school. What he owes on those loans would be enough to purchase a house. That does not matter to me because he is on a slow and steady repayment plan and it is all accounted for in our budget. But, the thing is, his parents paid fully for his brother's schooling and so he doesn't have those same enormous loans. My in-laws have been waving the idea under my husband's nose that if he sent them our financial information and what he owed on his loans, they might pay it off. I asked him NOT to do this and told him that his parents had no intention of paying off his loans. They just wanted to be nosy and also go on a power trip. Well, he sent them all of the information on his pay-off amount and a brief statement about our finances. When I asked him if they were actually going to "make good" on their promise, he said that he talked to them about it and they were just deciding...maybe they didn't have the money after all. When I said, "I told you so" he got mad and said, "what, you like it that I am so embarrassed and ashamed of this?" I said, "absolutely not. In the future, I just want you to realize they are NOT trustworthy and so refuse to divulge this type of information." So, that is the most recent stunt the in-laws have pulled in terms of mind-games. I guess he will have to learn that it doesn't matter if they are his parents. To become a parent in this world, all you have to do is conceive. There is no emotional stability requirement set out for future parents. He needs to realize that, parents or not, they are nasty people. A part of me is so angry at them for their perpetual mind games, but another part of me wants to let it go for my own sanity. It is hard being angry.
DeleteOh, one more thing...
DeleteHere's another story along the lines of "what kind of parent does that?!"
My MIL likes to often tell what she considers to be a humorous story. When my husband was 3, there was a snow storm outside and MIL decided she needed to go to the store. She left my 3-year-old husband alone in their apartment and went to the store, not thinking he was smart enough to unlock the door. Well, after she left the store, she found my husband out wandering the streets and was "so surprised!" to see him. She always tells this story and laughs because this is her version of humor.
What kind of mom does that??!!!
'the fantasy that underneath, she really IS a good person but just doesn't know how to communicate that.'
ReplyDeleteThis might be the case. I would hope that even when he thinks this (which is probably the hope of any child)he sees that he cannot accept her behaviour any longer. That she has to pay the price of admission, which doesn't include anything unreasonable.
Whatever he decides to do I won't lower my standards for how I want her to behave to be a part of my life or that of our children.
The story about the money and the promise of maybe paying off his debt... Disgusting this game playing. It is just another control game. This way your MIL can show you she's in control and can easily manipulate him doing things that he should discuss with you first because your finances are none of her business. This is on many levels utterly cruel to him and you.
ReplyDeleteWell, this would be a scenario my MIL could use only in a different way, since my husband needs to show her that he doesn't care about money (and cares about her), in contrast to his 'greedy brother' (words of the MIL). So she convinced him more than once to lend her huge amounts of money (money he has been saving on a continuous basis). This happened behind my back (MIL thought this should remain between them, because it was his money and not mine and of course she manipulated by asking him if he could still make decisions on his own now he was married...). When I found out I put a stop to it. And what do you think the money was for..., paying off the mortgage of one of her properties. And on another occassion money she wanted to use for her business. She pretended that it would be really advantageous to him because this way he could get a higher interest. Having his money however gave her a position of control (there was no contract signed or anything). So the last time I found out I told him, that first of all we both needed to agree, second I thought she should go to a bank and not her son, third I would only agree if she would sign a contract. So the deal was off. I remember that she was playing the martyr on the phone when he told her, she played a victim, softly speaking that if it couldn't happen it couldn't happen (but than as if it was a loan to pay for a life-saving surgery that couldn't go through). And he was almost whispering to her conveying his sympathy for her sorry situation. Never mind the woman is all about money, owns a lot of money and property etc.. It was all just powerplay. To come between us, to essentially show me what she could make him do (she knew I would find out in the end). When she had him on the phone whispering to her that he was so sorry it couldn't happen, oh what a moment of glory this must have been to her (once again). I think that he would still go for her version, however blatantly obvious her motives were.
It is the same pattern all over, your MIL, my MIL... It is al about control. And they don't care at all about their sons.
'...my husband needs to show her that he doesn't care about money (and cares about her), in contrast to his 'greedy brother'...'
ReplyDeleteWriting this reminded me of how she on numerous occassions said to my husband. Well if I give this (money, childhood pictures, etc...) to your brother, you wouldn't mind do you? Your brother is a greedy untrustworthy person. He wants it all, so I'll give it to him. You wouldn't mind, or do you mind? Then my husband told her, as requested, that he didn't mind, and she was satisfied..
Is this crazy 'reasoning' or what. It still makes me very angry when I think of this, can't however exactly pinpoint what she wanted to achieve with this. Can you?
(I probably will in a short while, writing and asking questions mostly helps :-).
You said:
Delete"Writing this reminded me of how she on numerous occassions said to my husband. Well if I give this (money, childhood pictures, etc...) to your brother, you wouldn't mind do you? Your brother is a greedy untrustworthy person. He wants it all, so I'll give it to him. You wouldn't mind, or do you mind? Then my husband told her, as requested, that he didn't mind, and she was satisfied..
Is this crazy 'reasoning' or what. It still makes me very angry when I think of this, can't however exactly pinpoint what she wanted to achieve with this. Can you?"
Well, my MIL does this as well to my husband and I have my own explanation for this ludicrous behavior. It is a way for MIL to very subtly play both brothers off of each other. It is a very subtle way for your MIL to make your husband jealous by implying that the other brother is special to her even though he is greedy. MIL shows your husband she does special little favors for his brother with the hopes that your husband might try to attempt to please her more so that he can also get such approval and affection. Whether your husband realizes it or not, he might receive her words and actions as if they were subtle but sharp emotional swords jabbing him in the stomach. Her words will probably plant subtle ideas in his head that he will start to think about and then wonder why she favors the brother. And once again, it will get your husband roped in to thinking about her and then thinking about how to please her so that he can show up his brother. Your husband probably won't fall for it but it is likely her hope that he does. Also, it is a way to estrange the brothers from one another so that they don't become so close that they start comparing notes about their "good old mom". My MIL does this all the time between my husband and his brother. It has served to estrange them a little though my husband fights it. MY MIL has also made it clear to her other son that when she is angry with my husband (because he is neglecting her) his brother is not allowed to talk to him.
Also, this whole thing with your MIL getting your husband to lend her money (originally) without your consent... well, I would be HOPPING MAD if that had happened to me. I do not think I could keep a level head if my husband did that and then MIL spent it on her mortgage and business. I am getting angry just writing this.
Another strange thing about my MIL is she hasn't worked for the past 30 years. When she did work, she got fired from job after job. Her husband has been the sole income earner. Up until 2008 I worked in a job that afford me a six-figure income. That was the high tech industry. When my second son was born, I decided to stay home with kids and attend school. After I did that, my MILs mantra has been that I am a deadbeat housewife who just mooches off her husband and doesn't do anything useful. She used to slip in comments about how he needs to make sure I don't take advantage of him by not having a career. Yet, all of that time I was in high tech, I was saving tons of money and investing it. In fact, the money I made in high tech well BEFORE I even MET my husband has allowed us to purchase two homes and provide a good life for our kids. Yet, she calls me a deadbeat housewife. I have to admit that sometimes I just want to scream at her and tell her she is projecting her own issues with herself on to me. My anger got the best of me today and I told my husband I did not want him answering her calls and texts again. Our older son got very ill with pneumonia and it was frightening. My husband told my FIL and my FIL told my MIL. She texted my husband to see if our son was ok but it was with the intent of being nosy and butting in. In the past, even before the big rift, there was never any genuine concern for the well-being of my kids when they became ill or something else happened. Her only interest was to have gossip to tell her extended family. There has never been a time when she has called when the kids have been in crisis and said as much as hello or showed any genuine concern. There is a real lack of empathy and it is infuriating. But, this whole thing with money and how they shame my husband in terms of money really burns my butt. There are some things I do know about them in terms of money that could get them in trouble but that would also be great fodder for below-the-belt insults. But, no matter how angry I get, I keep my mouth shut in terms of speaking my full and un-edited mind on this topic.
DeleteAnyhow....
Here's a random question--
DeleteDoes your MIL expect her son to call her on Valentine's Day and to send her cards and presents?
My MIL expects these things but my husband stopped doing that years ago.
It is really creepy how my MIL tries to make both of her sons into
quasi-spouses, quasi-lovers, and confidantes. I seriously want to vomit.
She's doing several things at the same time. She meddles between the brothers (I don't know if DH is that susceptible to jealousy), she rejects DH (by giving his brother a preferential treatment while he's displaying bad behaviour), she puts brother in bad daylight, she tells DH to prove to her he's good by not wanting anything from her. Now tell me this woman has good intentions...
ReplyDeleteI guess this is beating someone down, telling them they will never be good enough. Telling them they should give everything and not expect anything back, while at the same time rewarding another person for their bad behaviour. Really really twisted.
DeleteCertainly agree 100% with your assessment.
DeleteShe is certainly doing all of that and probably more.
Also, think of this-- since she is emotionally beating your husband down, this is a tactic to keep your husband emotionally off balance. Whether it works or not is another thing. It may not work, but I do believe her intent is to keep him off balance if she can. Think of it this way. When someone can take away another person's emotional equilibrium, confidence, or any other thing that serves to emotionally unbalance them, the target can be more easily controlled. This is what one of my text books said anyway. It seems to make sense because is someone loses confidence in himself, he is operating from a weakened place of self-doubt. When someone starts to fall into self doubt, he can be more susceptible to the control of others and also to being bullied by others. I wonder if that isn;t part of her tactic in order to control him. Maybe she doesn't do it consciously, but she still might be doing it.
Throwing them off balance is probably the key here, so they are more likely to accept any twisted reasoning as 'normal'. It all comes down to control and she's very skilled at this.
DeleteShe would probably use doing it not 'consciously' as her excuse for not being responsible for her behaviour. I don't accept it either, an adult woman, doing such things unconsciously. Isn't that the biggest excuse ever. How convenient for all those people doing nasty things. Everyone is just accountable for what they are doing.
Your MIL is trying to assissinate your character. She wants to hurt you. She's probably jealous of you and trying to get you down and jump into her bottomless pit. Disgusting isn't it. I know all to well how it feels to be the centre of such attacks. It really is ridiculous. In my case she tried something similar too.
ReplyDeleteMy MIL would in times of illness (if she would know) be on the phone to express her concerns and make her concerns such a drama that she would be the centre of attention sucking all energy needed for someone else/ the ill person. She loves using the misery of others to her own advantage by creating some self-centered drama.
Regarding Valentine's day, no. However many many years ago she expected him to buy her flowers for Mother's day. Although this is not about romantic things, it still made me feel eerie that an adult son goes to his mother and gives her flowers because she is his mother, probably because I think she has not been behaving as a good mother at all. And because of the other confidante, pseudo spouse dynamics I guess, it made me feel uncomfortable. Luckily he gave that up a long long time ago.
Don't tell me your husband has done something for his mother on Valentine's day, that would be very creepy, to say the least. I would vomit too.
We should get our MILs to entertain each other on a distant island, just the two of them.
Hello J,
DeleteAs for the Mother's Day and Valentine's Day thing, my husband usually sends a card on Mother's Day because both his mom and dad will literally 'tear him a new one' if he forgets.
Today we were out to lunch since he had a day off. His dad sent me a text wishing us well and politely asking about our son's health. I texted him back and was very (genuinely) warm and polite as I always am with him. (Have figured out over the years that FIL is not an evil person. Knowing what I know about FIL's childhood and his own severely abusive father, I see that FIL basically married a woman who would abuse him in the same way his own father did. Don't believe FIL did this consciously or that he has consciously made the connection. Basically, I see FIL as emotionally unwell but I have also witnessed him trying to do the right thing. The time my husband and I seriously talked divorce, FIL asked me if he could be involved in mediating our difficulties. He came to stay with us (with MIL) and was surprisingly level headed and mature. He sat calmly while my husband and I talked things out and basically led us back together. He had some insights that we needed at the time as well and treated me in a very non-biased manner. What I found out is that FIL can be counted on to be surprisingly level-headed and mature during serious family difficulties. Of course, this pissed off MIL, but that is yet another story...) So, I texted FIL back and was nice. Then MIL texted my husband Happy valentine's Day (just to him) and sent tons of kissey-face icons. This was during our lunch and my husband sheepishly looked at me and asked, "Oh crud-- I don't have to send my mom a card for Valentine's Day, do I?" (He had not sent one for years but suddenly got very anxious). I responded very firmly, "NO you do not need to send your mom a Valentine's Day card. Valentine's Day is a holiday for lovers and for husbands/wives. You are not your mom's husband." He looked sheepish and embarrassed at that point, but also not thoroughly convinced. I continued: "If a woman thinks that her adult son OWES her a Valentine's Day card or any other thing having to do with that, especially if her son is married, that woman NEEDS THERAPY." Then, my husband blushed red, said I had convinced him, and then begged to change the subject. I shouldn't have spoken so directly, but this type of thinking on my husband's part is VERY UNHEALTHY. What is worse is, shame on his mom!!! Seriously, in ancient Greek literature we read about Oedipus and then later Freud's oedipal complex. We read of the Electra complex. But, what of these mothers who seem to have inappropriate romantic notions about their grown sons? We don'ty have any such formal term for that so I am going to call it JUST PLAIN MESSED UP! This really, really, really makes my skin crawl that I have always gotten this kind of feeling from my MIL that she thinks of her sons in a quasi-sexual way (if not fully sexual way). If I spent the next 2,000 years living on this planet, I would never understand it. Once again, normal women are literally wired biologically to nurture those around them; especially their own children. When a woman somehow gets her wiring crossed and develops romantic designs on her own sons, that is really messed up and goes against the basic biology of nurturing. Just thinking of this makes me very ill. For years I have been in denial that my MIL might have unhealthy feelings toward her sons, but recently the evidence is literally so strong that I can no longer stay in denial. (By the way, I have not mentioned most of the creepy things she has done over the years that would point toward an inappropriate interest in her part. I have only mentioned a few of them and definitely not the craziest ones. If I posted some of the craziest ones, most people would probably interpret far worse than I am even interpreting here. So, once again-- what to do?
By the way, as for your MIL making herself the center of the drama when someone else is ill, I can relate to that. My MIL does that as well.
DeleteWhat has your MIL done that has made you the target of character assassination attempts?
It is probably jealousy on your MIL's part as well-- any woman who can take her son's attention away from her will be a target.
It's funny because even my own FIL one time said it wasn't personal. He *actually* told me that he believed his wife was just like Jane Fonda's character in the film "Monster In Law". He told me that just like Jane Fonda's character, his wife was on a rampage simply because I was "taking her son away from her". He said it wasn't personal and had happened to my husband's first wife as well. (MIL chased husband's first wife away a mere 6 months after they married...) My husband was still a student at the time (as was his wife). Knowing what I know about his first wife, I can see why she cut her losses and got out. They were still young students-- they had no children-- they had nothing that would have tied her to him after the MIL ramped up. Plus, she had parents who were not as forgiving and accommodating as mine. Her parents took on my MIL even during their engagement and wouldn't stand for their daughter being undermined. Apparently, her parents also influenced her decision to leave. What's funny is, my husband has showed me his ex-wife's website and I have seen her on the news as well. She is a well-know doctor (also a formal runway model) and she consults different television shows. No, I am not jealous. From what I have seen of her, she is a very smart, well-spoken, and very graceful woman. She is someone I would graviate towards in social circles. (No, not because of her connections. I could care less because those folks are not the crowd I graviate towards. I keep things simple.) I like what I have seen of his ex because she seems like she would be a really cool and interesting person to hang out with because she is so well-rounded and knowledgeable. She also has a lot of poise and grace in the way she carries herself but seems to have a very sharp sense of humor and not take herself too seriously. I kind of admire him for being married to her (if that makes sense). Before I had the blow up with MIL when we visited last, MIL was always talking about my husband's ex and how much she hated her. She would tell me that his ex was fat (not true), that his ex was ugly (not true), that his ex was stupid (not true!!), and she would go on and on about how she had tried to stop their wedding ceremony by standing in the front of the room and shrieking and then fainting. Yes... my MIL is a real winner. It is NO WONDER that my husband and I eloped!!!!!
Aren't you excusing your FIL here? Doesn't he have any responsibility towards his sons? He makes everything his wife is doing possible too, he excuses her. From what I have read I would still think there is a good cop-bad cop dynamic going on here. Or is he an innocent helpless bystander? I don't understand the in-laws moving in and FIL mediating while you had marital problems? Just a few questions arising from what you have written here. I just don't see adults as helpless people especially not when children are involved (I really don't care what kind of a childhood they had, if you have children you're responsible for them). Some people don't want to be helped, they are fine with messing up other people's lives, sometimes they just live on that. How can someone married to a woman like that mediate in the marriage of another couple, especially his son's? To me this sounds like a control issue too.
ReplyDeleteCould he see you as someone who will take it and keep the whole family functioning as it does, so FIL has it easier. You're probably the most reasonable person there so it is easier to get you to do the bending than MIL.
I think you should be less focused on the why and see the behaviour for what it is and that it won't change by understanding, and understanding doesn't justify it either.
Hello J,
DeleteThese are all excellent points that you bring up and I am so happy to hear your perspective on this. Truthfully, sometimes I definitely see a good cop/bad cop dynamic going on and then other times I see a man (my FIL) who is literally trying to survive and to keep his head above water. I see a man (FIL) who is a product of a very sick family system himself and who never had anyone who was sane in his own family. From what my husband has told me, FIL's dad was extremely physically and verbally abusive. FIL's older brother was also abusive to FIL. Then, there was the cultural element that he lived in where he was expected to suck it up and be a man. I am aware that FIL tried to divorce MIL twice, but each time, FIL's own MOTHER told him that in their culture they do not leave a spouse when children are involved. I am also aware that FIL's mother told him that FIL needed to stay so that MIL wouldn't completely destroy the children. FIL's mother told him to sacrifice his own happiness so that his own children would be reasonably safe. Also aware that FIL has had debilitating panic attacks since he was a young man. Now, unlike MIL, father in law does not use his panic attacks as leverage to guilt his sons. He doesn't blame anyone but himself for his panic attacks, which is interesting. (Maybe a martyr?) So, in this sense, I have compassion.
Then, there is the other times I see a good cop/bad cop dynamic and I think so what if FIL was abused and that is all that he knows. He is an adult and needs to make a choice to stay or go.
Part 2:
DeleteI really like your last paragraph where you say that understanding the behavior doesn't justify it. This is one of my blind spots. I have always been the type where if I am able to understand the behavior, I quickly get sucked in and start to pity someone. Still, as you said, understanding the behavior doesn't mean the behavior can be justified.
That's another thing that you stated that I hadn't thought of that adds great insight. You said I am probably the most reasonable person there and therefore easier to get to bend. That is absolutely true. When I look at my husband's family, there is no one there who is reasonably well balanced. Everyone is messed up and it seems to just be a matter of degrees of being messed up. When I am with them, I feel like I am caught in the middle of a swirling, chaotic, destructive tornado. Up is down, black is white, good is bad. I used to be the one who bent, but now I am getting more firm in my own boundaries. had a talk with my husband again today and said his mom is not welcome in our house-- ever. He agreed without hesitation. Last night when we were chatting, he began to have all these epiphanies about his parents, and especially his mom, which led him to the conclusion she is absolutely toxic and that she intends to be toxic. He was never fully willing to see that before. Then, he told me about a very cruel thing that happened when he was in college. He said during his second year of college he took too full a course load and got so stressed that he snapped. When he snapped he became depressed and obsessed with the idea he would fail. He went to a psychiatrist and got a formal diagnosis of severe depression and was put on meds. The only problem was, he couldn't afford the medication, so he had to ask his parents for it. When they first found out he was depressed, his mom called him crazy, shamed him, told him he was genetically faulty and that it was not from her side of the family, and then told him to 'get over it'. Only when he took the medication for a month or so did the extreme depression lift but he found that he needed to stay on it or he would relapse. He said trying to get his parents to help him with the cost was a terrible experience. His mom would shame him each time, talk about how the medication cost too much, tell him he was a burden, and etc etc. VERY ABUSIVE STUFF. When he told me this story, tears came to his eyes. Of course, when he and I were dating, it took him quite a while to share with me that he struggled with depression from time to time. I remember the day that he told me. He looked so ashamed and so much like he was expecting me to leave. We talked about it and I told him that my belief was depression does not make a person. Since we were dating and have been married, he has never had a flare up of severe depression. I believe it is entirely linked to the abuse he suffered and still suffers. In our home, 'love one another' in my mantra and I make a concerted effort each day to speak kindly, use words wisely, and to be very loving and affectionate. Even when I am angry, I do not swear, call names, or say cruel things. I do not threatened and I do not shame. In other words, I literally live in the way I would like to be treated by others. But, more importantly, the concepts of love and compassion are what primarily occupy my thinking. The reason this marriage has been so unsettling because for the first time in my life, I have struggled with terribly angry and resentful thoughts.
part 3:
DeleteBut back to the FIL and that dynamic. I really struggle with that since I know FIL is not a sociopath. (I absolutely believe MIL Is a sociopath and more on that later). I know about FIL and MIL's childhood. While FIL was being abused, MIL was being 'coddled' since she was the youngest. And apparently, she was also a little tyrant who even ordered her parents around. Why they tolerated it? Who knows-- but, apparently they did tolerate it and so she never learned what it meant to hear the word 'no'. And apparently she also never knew what it meant to actually do things for others (instead of always being waited on and coddled). She was given free reign to be a bully even when she was a child. So how did my FIL marry her? They were set up on a blind date. But, here is the catch-- MIL had told me herself that before she met FIL, she figured out where he lived, spied on him, and 'plotted' as to how she was going to rope him into marriage. Then when they did date, she got pregnant almost immediately and then her family strong-armed him into getting married. This is what she told me. But, to make things worse and to show that people are just pawns in her game, I will tell you another story she told me. She said when my husband was a year old, she got pregnant again but this time it was too inconvenient. She told me about how she had the fetus surgically removed because it wasn't convenient for her. When she was telling me this story, she kept saying these words over and over again: "F*** the baby. We didn't have the kind of money I wanted to have so f*** the baby." I remember when I heard that story for the first time. While I cannot say what a woman should do in this situation, I was absolutely floored by the callousness. Absolutely floored. It felt like one of the most cold-blooded things I had EVER heard in my life. I remember telling my husband about it at the time and how disturbed I was about how she was using the F word to speak about this child. My husband looked disturbed too and then told me that maybe since English wasn't her first language she didn't know what words to use. (Or so he hoped...) All I know is, when I was pregnant and when there was a fear that one of my children might have a chromosomal disorder, I immediately told the doctor that aborting my child was OUT OF THE QUESTION. The child turned out alright and the fear wasn't true, but even if it had been, I established immediately that this was my child, no matter what the issue was. So, this is one of the stories that makes me believe MIL is a sociopath. But, it is not because she chose to get rid of the child-- it is because of how and why and then how she thinks of that experience. Once upon a time I thought she might have been speaking from grief, but now I know she is that cold-hearted. It is totally disgusting. I am having a really hard time keeping my own angry thoughts in check these days.
And as for FIL-- I am still on the fence about how to view him. When my mom has spent time with them, her view has been that FIL is a victim and needs to get out. My mom has said that if FIL stays, MIL is going to destroy him completely. Since my mom is usually the person to give people the benefit of the doubt time and again, these were very strong words coming from her. I cannot remember a time when she has been so clear on her own opinion about someone.
So-- where does this leave my family? I wish my husband would just cut ties for a while but I do not see that happening.
What do you see in all of this?
Hi Sarah, Found this, maybe some food for thought:
ReplyDeletehttp://dealingwithtoxicpeople.blogspot.nl/2012/07/do-they-harm-us-on-purpose.html
Another interesting read:
ReplyDeletehttp://luke173ministries.org/templates/System/details.asp?id=39548&PID=466820
Wow!! Thank goodness that someone has addressed this from a Christian perspective. I have always believed that, even as Christians, we CANNOT enable abusive behaviors, but many Christians think we should and they use the Bible to justify enabling behaviors. My FIL is the person who makes the most excuses for his wife. He has used many of those excuses on the list (word for word). I cannot tell you how many times he has said to both me and my husband: "This is how she is. She is not capable of change and so you need to learn how to accept it." Or, there's my favorite one: "Sure she is rude, demeaning, and sometimes acts crazy, but YOU need to learn how to stop being so sensitive. If you would just let it go, there wouldn't be a problem. So, you need to fix yourself."
DeleteI think that is one of the most ludicrous things I have heard and is definitely about blaming the victim.
Yes well this has been the exact mantra of my husband's family too. Only it is not FIL who is saying this. It is the MIL herself, repeating it over and over again. She is like she is and she can't do anything about it, you'll just have to accept it, she will never change. At the moment I'm reading 'How to stop bullies in their tracks' by Ben Leichtling. I would recommend reading this book. There are many case studies in the book and examples of how to deal with bullying behaviour. I am finding it very enlightening.
DeleteIn the meantime I have decided for myself that my MIL will not be welcome at our house and as a consequence will not see our children either until she apologises for all her behaviour, not just the recent. She will need to show changed behaviour for a period of time before she will be welcome at our house again. I have told this to my husband. These are my boundaries for what I want from the MIL.
ReplyDeleteIs my husband happy with this? No. He said to me, you leave me no space (which essentially means he sees me as the person who would be flexible, but that will not happen anymore, i.e. not on the issue with his mother). He tried disqualifying the coach, wearing me down and just plainly sabotaging by not doing anything the coach had asked him to do. He told me, he didn't understand what the coach wanted him to do, but he didn't ask the coach for a clarification, he started complaining to me. I said, shall I tell the coach you want to quit, I'll continue with or without you. Then he said, no I want you to schedule an appointment for the both of us.
My husband also 'forgot' to tell me that when he had his father on the phone (start January) wishing him Happy New Year, the next one on the phone was his mother. I was really angry to find out he didn't tell me. He said, we didn't talk, she only wished me Happy New Year.
So now I can predict what the next move is. His father will call for my daughter's birthday and he will ask to speak to her, then the MIL will be the next. I said, we need to discuss what to do before this happens. He said, why should the children be the victim of the current situation> If my mother wants to congratulate our children why should I interfere (are we forgetting that it is her behaviour that got us in this situation in the first place??). He said, I don't want to micromanage everything. I said, we have to, I don't want the children involved in anything (which would happen if we would just let everything happen and give the MIL free reign). In the end he came up with the solution that if his parents called and wanted the children on the phone that he would say, then you have to make it right with your DIL, so talk to her.
Wow, the above incident that you recounted sounds exactly like the conversations I had with my husband three years ago. What had to happen in our case was his mom had to behave in such an outrageous way in front of her son that he (my husband) finally decided that if she ever wants to visit or talk to the kids, then she needs to apologize to me and behave in a way that is civil. So far he has kept to his promise but it might all change when our son's b-day rolls around. His dad has a way of wearing him down. In fact, my husband told me yesterday that he is glad I document incidents as they occur (in a private file-- not online) so that when his parents start to wear him down and literally deny his reality, he can go back to the original documentation and read the truth. If you don't already keep such a file that is private and not online, I would recommend keeping one and showing it to your husband from time to time.
DeleteSo you have not been in contact with your MIL for the past 3 years?
DeleteYes, contact ceased about 4 months ago. That was the last time I spoke with her. But, that doesn't mean that she has stayed out of our lives. In fact, she spends her entire day research us and our activities online.
DeleteFor example:
We recently purchased another home with money that I made prior to meeting my husband. I worked in the computer industry for years and aggressively saved my money instead of living in luxury. I have always been of the mind that one sets long-term goals, sticks to a plan, and then makes necessary sacrifices to achieve them. Well, when my in-laws found out that we purchased a second home without telling them each and every detail every step of the way, they became livid and started researching everything about the transaction online. So, this weekend my MIL was texting my husband satellite views of our new home she had found online. Then she looked up the public records to see when we bought it, then called him, and told him off for not telling her the very day that we had purchased it. My husband did the cowardly thing and told her the public records were incorrect and that we hasn't yet finished the purchase. Then my mother in law researched everything she could find about the community and texted all these articles saying we need to watch out for the coyotes that (allegedly) live in the area...and complained our children wouldn't be safe. Finally, she went to the public records online again, found the names of the previous homeowners and then found everything out everything she could about this previous family and then texted my husband about it. She's one of those people who never wishes anyone well-- even the people that she actually likes. She one of those people where even if the weather is perfectly sunny and the day is not too hot or too cold, she will find something to complain about and then spend the whole day nay-saying and making sure everyone around her is miserable. But, this last intrusion of hers has really ticked me off. And it ticks me off even more that my husband preferred to lie to his mom rather than confront her. I asked him why he didn't stop his mom in her tracks and say, "How dare you try to get into our personal business? How dare you think you are entitled to knowing everything about our lives and our decisions?" (And then hang up). Nope, that makes him feel queasy. My mother in law in very "smart" because she has trained both of her sons and her husband to believe that she is the incarnation of some kind of deity and convinced them it is their duty in life to worship her as such. (Now, I am being sarcastic because it is outrageous that someone exists who actually thinks this way). Someone needs to make a reality show called "Hubris Gone Wild" and feature my MIL.
This is outrageous! It is none of their business. However they will make everything their business given the chance. I would be extremely angry with my husband for not telling them to shut up. I would cease contact with FIL too.
DeleteMy husband has not contacted his mother since he confronted her with her behaviour and she hung up on him (start December). The only contact since then was his father on the phone wishing him Happy New Year and then his mother was the next one on the phone. Last night I had a nightmare, my husband was constantly talking to his mother behind my back while pretending to me there was no contact.
Oh geez... the nightmare....
DeleteI can see why you had that nightmare because it is one of those situations
that actually could occur.
But, if you and your husband are open and honest with each other, then you
can believe he has no contact just as he said.
How do you think you would react if that ever happened?
Here's a question and I am asking this because it is something I think
Deleteabout occasionally.
What will you do if your husband takes your kids to see MIL behind your back?
Would you be willing to divorce one day if your husband refuses to support you
in this area?
I told my husband about the nightmare and he said to me, that won't happen. My nightmare represents my biggest fear but in the current situation it is less realistic for it to happen than it would have been in the past.
DeleteHe will not take our kids to see his mother, I know that for sure. That would be the end of our marriage. I don't want to divorce my husband and he doesn't want to divorce me so he won't do that. I know he would bring it up with me first if he would want to do that.
The situation at the moment: we agreed that his mother has to apologise and change her behaviour. My husband agrees with that although he knows she probably won't do it, so now it is up to her to do something if she wants to have contact. That changes the whole dynamic of the situation. In the meantime we have some rest to think about what we want and to restore peace in our relationship without her continuous interference. I love it, it is a huge burden you know that all too well, and it is terrible to live that way.
I hope you wil find something to work with, something as a starting point to build on and get on the road to a place where you and your husband will have some peace of mind so you can direct your energy to where it belongs and have a peaceful, joyful family life with your two sons.
Has your husband read 'Toxic In-Laws'? Maybe that could open some doors, I know it has helped my husband with acknowledging that what his mother does is not ok, and that he's not the only one.
Hello J,
DeleteToxic InLaws is such a great book! (And no, my husband has not read it).
But, fortunately, this week he said that his mom will not see our kids
until she apologizes. He says he will stand firm on this even if his
brother and father attempt a guilt trip. We had a long heart to heart.
He apologized to me and said prior to getting married, he knew his mom
could be difficult but not that she was very 'eccentric' in the way she inter-acted with others. But, he said he had no idea she was capable of
the level of cruelty and refusal to compromise that she has shown.
I told him surely he should have found this out during his 20's.
But, then he reminded me that at 16 or 17 he left home permanently
for university and did much of his schooling overseas. He hand't lived
in the same town as his parents for years and he admitted that he
believed his mom when she would tell him over and over again that
she is a loving person and loving mother in law. Basically, his mom
is manipulative enough to treat me differently when she and I are
completely alone and there are no witnesses. So, in the beginning
of our marriage, she would be nice to my face in front of everyone
and then get me alone and say and do horrible things. Then, she
would actually go back to my husband and say I did horrible things
when she was with me.
The short of it is, he sees it now, he has so much evidence that her
behavior is irrefutable (in case she tries to tell more lies) and he
has said she will not see the kids, talk to the kids, or visit until there
is an apology from her and a period of 'normal' behavior following
the apology.
That is well and good, but now he will also have to weather the
pressure from his father and his brother. His brother has already
stopped talking to him (since MIL 'owns' his brother's behavior).
MIL controls BIL to the extent that BIL is not 'allowed' to have a
relationship with my husband unless my husband bows down
to MIL's wishes. In the past, my husband could be swayed when
BIL would call and talk. But, now he is of the mind that his brother
needs to take ownership over the fact that his brother is so easily
swayed by their mom. So, that is good on my husband's part.
The final hurdle is my husband needs to psychologically prepare
for what FIL will say or do. FIL's mantra has always been: "You guys
need to accept that this is she way she is. She will not change.
Therefore, it is YOUR FAULT if you confront her on her bad behavior
and it is your fault if you make her angry or make her cry. I am blaming
you guys because everyone knows that you have to just let her be
and do as she wishes."
YAH RIGHT!!!!!
At least on my part, those days are over. And it sounds like for
my husband, they are almost over as well.
By the way, have you ever noticed that if the reasoning
"that is just how she is, you need to live with it and to
accept it" could be VERY dangerous if it were applied to
other situations?
For example, what if society said that about pedophiles and
mass-murderers... "oh well, that is just how they are, they
cannot change, and it's up to us just to accept it."
Well, a type of chaotic anarchy would soon follow and society
would fall into pandemonium.
Will certainly remind husband of this idea the next time FIL
attempts to manipulate him by saying those words.
Very happy to hear your husband is saying this!! Now he will have to weather the pressure that will be coming as you say. You could prepare by role playing the situations that could occur. Then your husband will be prepared and then the risk of getting caught up in the situation will be far less. The best of luck to the both of you!
DeleteHe said this wasn't about avoiding a confrontation he just didn't want to be in the middle of it anymore.
ReplyDeleteThat's exactly the point (though not in the way he sees it), I think his mother has forced it to be that way by wanting him to choose between her and me. But it is not a matter of choosing her or me, it is about him growing up and saying to his mother. Stop playing games. I want you to apologise to me and J. and I want you to start being nice to us.
Well, anyway, should this situation arise and should the MIL call me. I can always simply refuse to talk to her. Or I could say that I will not talk to her before she apologises to her son and that I'm appalled by her behaviour to her son, to me and that I do not appreciate her meddling in our relationship. Just some thoughts. One thing's for sure though, my limits are reached and I'm choosing to think for myself and what I want and what I will allow, and there's no going back. I'm curious to see what my husband will do.
I forgot, I asked him to say to me what he wanted after he talked to the coach and didn't write down anything. So he emailed me that he wanted to see his parents, that he would feel sorry for the children and his parents/father if they would be unable to see each other because of 'the situation'. I asked him how he saw us moving from the current situation to that situation (essentially back to what it was). Well, you don't want to see my mother again. I said that is not what I said, I said that she needs to apologise and change her behaviour. This made it clear that he would want me to say, I don't want to see her again, because then it would be a lot easier to him (and the MIL too). The MIL wouldn't have to change anything and would be in a victim situation and my husband could then say, well I do want to see her, it's my mother. How convenient. So I repeated once again that if she changes her behaviour and apologises she can have what she wants (or better said pretends to want).
My husband still wants to have a relationship with his parents as well and he feels sorry for them too. These types of parents are wonderful at playing the guilt card and also at blaming the victim. It's amazing how my mother in law can go from being this vicious person who screams she wishes I were dead to this simpering, crying woman who is being prevented from seeing her grandchildren when all she wants to do is love them. REALLY?
DeleteJ, what will you do with your husband?
Here's a question-- has your MIL ever said to either your face or your husband's face that she wished you were dead? My MIL has done both and it has taken that to get my husband thinking she needs to apologize to me. It actually took that kind of extreme behavior, several times, before he was willing to see it. He doesn't take her seriously though, even though he is willing to set a boundary. I do take her seriously.
I have told my husband many times that I would not be speaking to my parents if they acted in such a way. Parents or not, I would not speak to them. Fortunately, my parents are level-headed and have always treated him with the utmost kindness and respect. Sometimes this really makes me mad because he doesn't have to be in a hard situation where he knows my parents are always working against them. He only half-way appreciates the fact that my parents are so supportive of us, of him, of our marriage, and of thew kids. They have bent over backwards many times.
Here's another question-- over the course of my life, I have figured out that I can feel the thoughts and feelings of others-- even long distance. I guess that is a type of empathy. Well, here is what bothers me. There are many times I can actually feel my MIL's hatred and it really hurts. have you ever had a similar experience? I am trying to learn techniques to shield my own psyche.
Well the hatred of the MIL is obvious and before I got sucked into this cycle but I couldn't care less these days. It is her problem now, not mine. She's out of my life as a consequence, that's the choice I made. I will not allow her to treat me like that. She has to make amends. If she doesn't the consequences are hers. I cannot make it better for my husband and am not planning to become a martyr, so this is it.
ReplyDeleteSince when is proving you're a good person to bad people a good idea? That just means you're part of the cycle of abuse.
ReplyDeleteHere's the kicker though. What if someone is just naturally a nice person and has a hard time being otherwise? When does one set boundaries etc?
DeleteI would say that it is a misconception that nice people don't set boundaries, some nice people have not yet learned how to do that and will have to because there is nothing nice about not setting boundaries.
ReplyDeleteWho will profit anyway from not setting boundaries? Abusers... People who respect others are ok with people setting boundaries.
I think you naturally know when someone oversteps a boundary so that is a cue.
'"If a woman thinks that her adult son OWES her a Valentine's Day card or any other thing having to do with that, especially if her son is married, that woman NEEDS THERAPY." Then, my husband blushed red, said I had convinced him, and then begged to change the subject. I shouldn't have spoken so directly, but this type of thinking on my husband's part is VERY UNHEALTHY.'
ReplyDeleteYou say you shouldn't have spoken so directly. I wanted to say that I disagree with you here, I think it is really good you did! He should hear your opinion, that will provide him with some (much needed) antidote.
One quick comment-- had some insight into the warped way in which
DeleteMIL justifies her abominable behavior towards any woman who steps
into her son's life.
My husband said that his mom treats his dad in a hateful and spiteful way
because she does not feel loved by her own husband. I asked my husband
what FIL would need to do to make MIL feel loved. My husband said that
FIL would be required to wait on her hand and foot, shower her with
praise all day while elaborating on all of her wonderful virtues. (Note:
she has no virtues but firmly believes she does and requires everyone
around her to extol her virtues constantly). FIL would be required to
constantly buy new presents, attend to all of her emotional needs constantly,
and then say 'I love you' hundreds of times per day.
Now, anyone who is reasonably objective realizes expecting this type
of treatment from a significant other is OUTRAGEOUS. It's like romance
novel fantasy on steroids. YUCK.
But, the irony here is that MIL feels that she is justified in actively
treating FIL in a constantly hateful manner since he has 'betrayed'
her by not doing all of the things she requires. She sees him as a
villan because of this. But, what is even more outrageous is that MIL
does NOT have a loving demeanor by any stretch of the imagination.
She literally yells when she speaks-- is very loud and crass- and
is not warm or friendly, even when she is in a good mood. So, how
is it that someone who isn't even loving and nurturing on her good
days can expect that type of behavior from her husband when she
does nothing to inspire it in the first place? And then she thinks she
is justified in cruelty toward her husband because he has broken all
of these outrageous rules and expectations that no sane person would
ever consider as a criteria for being loving.
Here is where I come in.
Since MIL has not gotten FIL to give her the love she believes she
deserves, she has raised (read FORCED) her own sons to give her
that sick type of emotional reinforcement.
She hates me for two reasons because of this:
1) Since her son is married, he is not available to give her the
constant reinforcement that she 'trained' him to give her
since he was a very young child.
2) Since she trained her son to give her this reinforcement,
she probably believes that he is too busy giving me this type
of reinforcement and so now I am the 'lucky party' that is being showered
with all this attention and love that was meant for her. (In her mind).
This must make her crazy jealous. I am literally the woman who stole
love from her.
YUCK.
Now... in reality, my husband probably married me because I do not
want such reinforcement. I learned a long time ago to be comfortable
with myself and to find my sense of self internally. My self-worth is
not based on how much he tells me he loves me or when and if he
gives me presents. In fact, I am not the type that wants such a relationship.
To me, genuine love is in the DOING and not in the SPEAKING. While
we tell each other quite frequently we love each other, our love is
based on the way we treat each other on a day to day basis. We are a
team-- we each carry our weight-- we each respect the other for the
strengths that we bring and each of our strengths is different. To me,
this is love-- not some guy acting like Pepe Le Pew (the skunk), chasing
a woman around all day and yelling love and romance from the
rooftops. No thanks.
J, do you ever have the sense that your MIL has attempted to do
something like this to her sons as well? Just wondering if you
have encountered this phenomenon.
Well my MIL is a crazy sociopath so she does what she does,turns everything into a drama just for her own entertainment, loves to bring people down, is extremely jealous, feels no remorse, feels no empathy, needs to be the center of attention always. So this is the basis of all the in our eyes outrageous behaviour, which is just normal life to her. Add some enablers and some inncocent bystanders who were pulled in to the mix and there you go. Even more people to destroy.
ReplyDelete